T Nation

Training Methods - Sheiko, WSB, And Others - Discussion, Arguments

strength
powerlifting

#185

Im not American but that’s not important.

From what i can remember, you’ve said this more than once during this thread:

And

Now, when @chris_ottawa talks about Compensatory Acceleration Training (CAT), we’re not talking about lifting low loads to achieve high velocity, we’re talking about lifting regular submaximal work sets (70-90% 1RM) with the intent to lift it as fast as possible. It is basically the Repeated Effort of building strength that is mentioned in Zatsiorsky’s Science and Practice book but with the intent to lift each rep as fast as possible. By lifting in this way you may develop explosive strength as well as maximal strength without any other special speed work which may then allow the lifter to achieve a higher bar velocity (still gonna be very slow) when reaching the sticking point of the press which is likely to result in a better outcome.

You do understand that this is exactly what you are doing? Every time something is posted that you do not agree with you respond with something along the line of “you do not understand” and then refer to the same source of scientific evidence from Zatsiorsky. Other studies do exist. Although, the current scientific literature is still lacking even within highly popular sports like soccer, American football and rugby let alone smaller sports such as powerlifting.

The theory being proposed by coaches such as Bryant appears to be working with his crop of elite bench presses. Until this is thoroughly proved or disproved as a successful means of training by studies then no one can claim it definitely does or does not work. However, if a coach with high levels of experience and expertise uses a method with their athletes that they believe works then i would be surprised if this method was not backed up by scientific evidence either before they implemented it or after a period of time to allow sufficient studies to be conducted.

PS, I didnt even know who Bryant was before this thread so you cant say that i am


#186

Perhaps this is because I didn’t read yet CAT. I know that Chris Ottawa recommended her to me. I am skeptical of these similar methods, as they usually don’t have confirmation in the relevant studies.

You answered yourself. Each training method will always be based on speculation if it’s not scientifically validated and if lifters, for example, in IPF will not have frequent successes with this method for many years.

However, it has to be said that everyone to train according to their best consciousness and conscience. I’m only trying to divert some lifters from the unnecessary path. My student @Glaber was grateful enough for me to change his training mentality and for recommending him to read useful books.

Edit: It happens to me regularly that during month they write me three or four people asking for advices about the training program and the books.


#187

You really want to start this sort of argument? First of all, being 12 years older than you is no advantage. I have been training seriously for about 4 years. You claim to have a better squat and deadlift but you neither squat nor deadlift and you have never registered a total in a powerlifting meet.

You are the bench specialist with a weak bench.


#188

Basic physics: force=massXacceleration. Accelerate the weight as much as possible and you will generate more force. Or is the ability to generate force not relevant in your view?


#189

People ask you for advice about training because you seem knowledgeable and refer to evidence from relevant studies and books. However, you dismissed CAT as useless for developing strength in the raw bench press and then now admit you haven’t read anything around CAT. That does not sound like someone who uses an evidence based approach to their programming.

Since you mentioned relevant books, would anyone be interested in a thread about books that people have read that are worth reading?


#190

It’s not for everybody. Most people in the US have been skeptical of this stuff for 20+ years.

What about the Max Effort Method? Are you guys into that? It’s like tricking yourself into being stronger. Just 1 rep is better than 3 or 5 reps? Controversial!


#191

Science & Practice of Strength Training, 2nd edition, page 75-76; Biomechanical Variables and Intermuscular Coordination

When an athlete lifts maximal weights, movement velocity reaches its ultimate value and then remains nearly constant. Acceleration of the barbell varies near the zero level and the force is more or less equal to the weight of the object lifted.

In the lifting of moderate weights, there can be two variation. In figure 4.3a,(this refers to a graph, see the book if you want a visual explanation - Chris) efforts are maximally applied. Acceleration increases in the initial phase of the lift, then falls to zero and becomes negative in the second phase of the motion. At the beginning the force applied to the barbell is greater than the weight lifted and then decreases. The second part of the motion is partially fulfilled via the barbell’s kinetic energy. In this type of lifting, muscular coordination differs from that used in the lifting of maximal or near-maximal weights. That is, muscular efforts are concentrated (accentuated) only in the first half of the movement.

In the second instance, kinematic variables of the movement (velocity, acceleration) are similar to those observed when a person does a maximal lift. Acceleration, and the corresponding external force applied to the barbell, is almost constant. However, this motion pattern–the intentionally slow lift–involves the coactivation of antagonistic muscle groups. Such intermuscular coordination hampers the manifestation of maximum strength values.

Differences in underlying physiological mechanisms, experienced when exercising with various loads, explain why muscular strength increases only when exercises requiring high forces are used in training.

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So in other words, you absolutely should apply maximum force into every rep. And the deceleration that occurs in the second half of the concentric movement can be prevented with the use of accommodating resistance. You could also use other exercises to work the end range of the lift like (in the case of the bench press) board presses, close grip bench, slingshot, etc.


#192

Are you getting a Connection and carry over from vertical jumps to the squat?

Does accelerating all through the jump, especially the end range, help you squat faster?


#193

Not sure since I’m also doing CAT work for both the squat and deadlift. The jumps are just part of the warmup, which includes CAT squats. It certainly hasn’t had any negative effects and my vertical jump has increased, I’m not far from hitting my head on the ceiling. Since I started doing submaximal work (I was already applying max force into every rep but most sets were 1-2 short of failure) my squat had gotten a lot faster. I used to move like an old man getting off the toilet.


#194

Unfortunately, you’re wrong. You are 12 years older, so you have more mature muscles, tendons and the like. This is an important variable…

Of course, I didn’t mean such an austere explanation, but I meant the results at 100 people, which is an appropriate sample and it’s relevant.

These two books I liked most about:

  1. Science and Practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky & Kraemer
  2. Special Strength Training - Manual for Coaches by Verkhoshansky

Only some passages are interesting also in Westside Barbell Book of Methods.

Yeah, I agree. If I paraphrase a bit, Zatsiorsky writes in the Czech translation that “pouze pomalé pohyby vytváří a zlepšují maximální sílu” or “only the slow movements create and improve the maximum strength”. In places, an original English translation is much better than a Czech translation this book… However, this debate begins to be a bit absurd, because in a result, everyone will train as wants.


#195

This debate is absurd because you contradict the same sources that you cite. You are wrong, plain and simple.

That’s bullshit. There are plenty of records set by guys under 30, how long you have been training is the most relevant factor. If your squat and deadlift are so much better than mine (by 2.5kg and 5kg respectively, and not in competition) then why did you quit to focus on your weak ass bench? And where is the video anyway? You don’t even compete, so don’t try to compete against me. My squat and deadlift are nothing to brag about, and I don’t try to brag about them anyway. If I keep doing what I’m doing then eventually I will get somewhere, unlike you with your negative acceleration training.


#196

I don’t want to argue, you are 34 years old (I am 22 years old) and you behave like a child. Again, you are wrong, in strength sports the age (roughly to 45 years) is a great benefit to the resulting strength.

You should be ashamed because I am not the powerlifter and I am stronger in 2 of the 3 main exercises. We both train for roughly equally long. Isn’t this a bad pointer for you?

On the squat and the deadlift I have achieved my goals, I don’t feel motivated, I don’t have to compete in such a poor and ungrateful sport as the powerlifting. That’s below my level. Almost nobody not respecting powerlifters. For example, the stupid CrossFit is a much more popular and richer sport.

I want lift 150 kg on the bench press, that’s my long-term goal.

I like watching your log, but try changing behavior.


#197

Your lifts are barely ahead of mine and I have benched 65lbs more than you, and will exceed all those numbers very soon. Seeing as we have both trained the same amount of time means that we have progressed at the same rate. You say that age is a benefit, but I also have two kids, one of whom was a newborn baby when I got into PL. Is lack of sleep also an advantage? You say you aren’t a powerlifter, but that is only true because you do not compete, you train like a powerlifter and study powerlifting methods.

I did 5lbs. less for 4 reps with a close grip last Thursday.

What happened is that we were having a debate on how much force should be applied to submaximal lifts in training. The sources you tried to cite do not agree with you, as I have shown. This “behaviour” you speak of is a result of you trying to act like you are better than me due to your squat and deadlift being 2.5 and 5kg ahead of mine. Who is acting like a child? Just forget this argument, realize that I was right about compensatory acceleration, and move forward.


#198

I know it’s anecdotal evidence and I’m a noob but since I’ve made a trainee do speed work his bench strength and speed dramatically improved.


#199

I wonder if @chris_ottawa stupid or idiot…@gaelic you’re writing right


#200

Running to your boyfriend’s defence? How romantic. He’s “writing right” you say, but he is referring to Zatiorsky in an attempt to defend his absurd theory that maximal force should not be applied to submaximal weights when in fact Zatiorsky says the exact same thing that I have been saying.

I suggest you take some English lessons before attempting to engage in a debate.


#201

Yes, I say. For example, in the case of strongmen, age plays a key role. The older the strongman, the better his can use his strength and experience. It will tell you every the strongman.

I don’t train as a powerlifter because I not do the squat and the deadlift. That’s flagrant.

Okay. I know that the bench press I have weak because of my long arms, but there are still people on the T-Nation who have a lot worse performance on the bench press.

They don’t contradict with my claim, so you’re not right again.

I have never said that CAT is an unnecessary/bad method. After reading, I might write a verdict.

All the time, I’m just saying that the explosive strength is useless for the powerlifter, because it can’t be used in competitions. That’s all.

I never said that sentence, you lie again (possibly deliberately).

He isn’t an idiot, just distorting the context and what I wrote.


#202

Works for me. I tend to lift explosively enough that I don’t get enough work after the sticking point and lock the weight out fast enough to make anything lighter than 85% almost leave my back with my heels coming off the floor.

The bands slow me down enough to allow me to build strength beyond the sticking point. I use a mini band to keep the bar weight high enough to work the bottom range.


#203

This might shock some, but I’m on Chris’s side on this one.

Look CAT should be settled science by this point. Even before Hatfield wrote about it, old time lifters were using the method of lifting as forcefully as possible all the time. Anyone who doesn’t get this has some historical reading to do.

Oh and BTW, the poundage that someone lifts has nothing to do with the validity of one’s position.


#204

“Explosive strength can’t be used in competitions”. REALLY??

Next time you lift a max deadlift, try to lift it as slowly as possible and let us know how it works out. Explosion is related to muscle recruitment which is governed by the INTENT with which you forcefully try to move the weight.

If this isn’t clear enough, try to break a board in half by slowly pushing it at the middle. Next hit the board forcefully. SEE?