Training Fasted First Thing in The Morning

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]ParagonA wrote:
I honestly believe that training completly fasted has many drawbacks. You will probably be able to somehow keep your mass and even to make some shy progress when you add som BCAAs. But it’s certainly not the best way for optimal results.

Proper peri-workout nutrition is so imprortant for optimal progress. Personally I would suggest spiking insulin pre-workout, since insulin response after training will be limited anyway because of the raised catecholamine levels.

[/quote]

ThisThisThis.

BBB[/quote]

Thanks a lot great advice. I’m in college so my supplement budget is limited to set in stone currently with BCAA’s, Metabolic Drive, and Creatine. But I currently take in 30g of carbs on weekdays should I take in like 20g of carbs pre-workout to get this insulin spike?

good luck with your goals view 1 thanks for the reply.

Yes I compete, I got up to 11% so I’m doing a re-comp and am back to 9% just trying to figure things out. At 19 my teenage show days are done so no more 6 weeks of prep, and 16" guns. In the Mens division I got slaughtered so I’m just trying to figure out how to get to that level, and keep pushing forward.

22

[quote]tnt2005 wrote:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]ParagonA wrote:
I honestly believe that training completly fasted has many drawbacks. You will probably be able to somehow keep your mass and even to make some shy progress when you add som BCAAs. But it’s certainly not the best way for optimal results.

Proper peri-workout nutrition is so imprortant for optimal progress. Personally I would suggest spiking insulin pre-workout, since insulin response after training will be limited anyway because of the raised catecholamine levels.

[/quote]

ThisThisThis.

BBB[/quote]

Thanks a lot great advice. I’m in college so my supplement budget is limited to set in stone currently with BCAA’s, Metabolic Drive, and Creatine. But I currently take in 30g of carbs on weekdays should I take in like 20g of carbs pre-workout to get this insulin spike?

[/quote]

I know the feeling of being on a very tight budget. Couln’t really spend much on supps until I was 29 and had finished my PhD.

What do you mean by “30g of carbs on weekdays”? Are you on a very low carb diet and refeed on weekends?
I personally would go for 0.5 to 0.75 grams of carbs per pound of lean bodymass peri-workout. With most of it pre and during). If you are on a low carb diet, you should just have those carbs on training days and avoid carbs for the rest of the day (only trace carbs from veggies and nuts).
Being on a tight budget, dextrose bought in bulk would be a good and very cost efficient way to go. Just mix, say, 90g dextrose with your BCAAs and start sipping on that drink 15 minutes before workouts.
You could opt form some bottles of Grow! when you place your next Biotest order and have one serving upon waking up (in addition to the prei-workout shake).

23

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]ParagonA wrote:
I honestly believe that training completly fasted has many drawbacks. You will probably be able to somehow keep your mass and even to make some shy progress when you add som BCAAs. But it’s certainly not the best way for optimal results.

Proper peri-workout nutrition is so imprortant for optimal progress. Personally I would suggest spiking insulin pre-workout, since insulin response after training will be limited anyway because of the raised catecholamine levels.

[/quote]

ThisThisThis.

BBB[/quote]

ParagonA and BBB,
How long do catecholamine levels remain elevated and how much do they affect the insulin response? Or, in more practical terms, how long after the workout is it the most productive to have carbs again? For example, here is how I eat for the first part of the day:

  1. Within 30min-1h of waking up 25g whey + tea, cinnamon, Ricore (I’ll also add 5g leucine to this sometime next week)

  2. 2-2.5h after waking up I start training. I mix 2 scoops SWF, 2 Anaconda and 1 MAG-10 for that. I drink about a quarter of it 15 minutes before I start lifting, finish it pretty much at the same time as my last set. I’ll occasionally have a Finibar 30 minutes before training

  3. 45 minutes after the end of the workout 50g whey + 30g carbs (equal parts WMS, palatinose, dextrose)

  4. 90 minutes after the end of the workout solid meal, roughly 60g protein, 90g carbs (I’ll also add 5g leucine to this sometime next week)

I only have trace carbs for the remainder of the day.

I’d appreciate any comments on the possible rearrangement of this as an example of improving carb distribution :wink:

Thanks,
B. [/quote]

Heya!

I will have to let BBB answer the questions about how long catecholamines remain elevated and how much the insuline response will be affected. He’s the man for such questions.
But as far as I can judge, your peri-workout protocol looks very solid. You have most of the carbs pre- and during and then some more wo+45.

Personally, I wait one full hour until I have my post workout meal. I have 2 FINiBARs pre and 2 SWF, Anaconda and 12g BCAA during. Right after the workout I have 2 servings of Grow!
After one hour, I have my next big meal.

I experimented with having a serving uf Surge Recovery 60 minutes after workouts with great success in the off-season. Remember, you certailny want insuline spikes during the off season, especially around the workout.
Now that I am slowly entering a contest prep, I opt for oats or sweat potatoes 60 minutes after workouts and have no other carbs for the day.

25

Just try it out and see if you like it, there are plenty of successful bodybuilders who didn’t have intra workout shakes/post workout shakes or follow any “peri-protocol.”

26

[quote]ParagonA wrote:

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]ParagonA wrote:
I honestly believe that training completly fasted has many drawbacks. You will probably be able to somehow keep your mass and even to make some shy progress when you add som BCAAs. But it’s certainly not the best way for optimal results.

Proper peri-workout nutrition is so imprortant for optimal progress. Personally I would suggest spiking insulin pre-workout, since insulin response after training will be limited anyway because of the raised catecholamine levels.

[/quote]

ThisThisThis.

BBB[/quote]

ParagonA and BBB,
How long do catecholamine levels remain elevated and how much do they affect the insulin response? Or, in more practical terms, how long after the workout is it the most productive to have carbs again? For example, here is how I eat for the first part of the day:

  1. Within 30min-1h of waking up 25g whey + tea, cinnamon, Ricore (I’ll also add 5g leucine to this sometime next week)

  2. 2-2.5h after waking up I start training. I mix 2 scoops SWF, 2 Anaconda and 1 MAG-10 for that. I drink about a quarter of it 15 minutes before I start lifting, finish it pretty much at the same time as my last set. I’ll occasionally have a Finibar 30 minutes before training

  3. 45 minutes after the end of the workout 50g whey + 30g carbs (equal parts WMS, palatinose, dextrose)

  4. 90 minutes after the end of the workout solid meal, roughly 60g protein, 90g carbs (I’ll also add 5g leucine to this sometime next week)

I only have trace carbs for the remainder of the day.

I’d appreciate any comments on the possible rearrangement of this as an example of improving carb distribution :wink:

Thanks,
B. [/quote]

Heya!

I will have to let BBB answer the questions about how long catecholamines remain elevated and how much the insuline response will be affected. He’s the man for such questions.
But as far as I can judge, your peri-workout protocol looks very solid. You have most of the carbs pre- and during and then some more wo+45.

Personally, I wait one full hour until I have my post workout meal. I have 2 FINiBARs pre and 2 SWF, Anaconda and 12g BCAA during. Right after the workout I have 2 servings of Grow!
After one hour, I have my next big meal.

I experimented with having a serving uf Surge Recovery 60 minutes after workouts with great success in the off-season. Remember, you certailny want insuline spikes during the off season, especially around the workout.
Now that I am slowly entering a contest prep, I opt for oats or sweat potatoes 60 minutes after workouts and have no other carbs for the day.
[/quote]

Thanks ParagonA.

I’m starting a gaining phase next monday (although considering I ate twice as much as my friends during a dinner out yesterday I may have started it then :wink: ), so it seems like I’m set.

I’ll be trying I3G out in 2 weeks, after I have already bumped my carbs up a bit and started taking photos/measurement, and pre-workout FINiBARs will definitely make an appearance.

B.

27

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:

[quote]ParagonA wrote:
I honestly believe that training completly fasted has many drawbacks. You will probably be able to somehow keep your mass and even to make some shy progress when you add som BCAAs. But it’s certainly not the best way for optimal results.

Proper peri-workout nutrition is so imprortant for optimal progress. Personally I would suggest spiking insulin pre-workout, since insulin response after training will be limited anyway because of the raised catecholamine levels.

[/quote]

ThisThisThis.

BBB[/quote]

ParagonA and BBB,
How long do catecholamine levels remain elevated and how much do they affect the insulin response? Or, in more practical terms, how long after the workout is it the most productive to have carbs again? For example, here is how I eat for the first part of the day:

  1. Within 30min-1h of waking up 25g whey + tea, cinnamon, Ricore (I’ll also add 5g leucine to this sometime next week)

  2. 2-2.5h after waking up I start training. I mix 2 scoops SWF, 2 Anaconda and 1 MAG-10 for that. I drink about a quarter of it 15 minutes before I start lifting, finish it pretty much at the same time as my last set. I’ll occasionally have a Finibar 30 minutes before training

  3. 45 minutes after the end of the workout 50g whey + 30g carbs (equal parts WMS, palatinose, dextrose)

  4. 90 minutes after the end of the workout solid meal, roughly 60g protein, 90g carbs (I’ll also add 5g leucine to this sometime next week)

I only have trace carbs for the remainder of the day.

I’d appreciate any comments on the possible rearrangement of this as an example of improving carb distribution :wink:

Thanks,
B. [/quote]

Answer: It very much seems to depend on the individual, however the one variable that does seem to crop up again and again is workouot intensity (and how your body responds to it). It seems to be largely about cortisol release as a response to exercise.

For example, a regular resistance workout (60-120 sec rests, 3 sets of 8-15 etc) shouldn’t create that much stress and cortisol. However at the other end of the spectrum, interval sprints, dragging a prowler would likely create significant cortisol elevation.

At least, this is how it is in me. Timing of the exercise session also plays a part, in that the earlier you train in the day, the more likely you are to create an elevation in cortisol.

And it isn’t necessariliy about the effect on insulin response that is the single most critical aspect of cortisol. Remember that cortisol is going to break down muscle tissue and facilitate its conversion into blood glucose. Less muscle = less metabolically active tissue = fat gain in the longer term, not necessariliy directly related to carb/excess carb intake.

But IME, hyperglycemia (as resulting from cortisol release) will have some detrimental though probably short-lived effects on insulin sensitivity.

BBB[/quote]

Thanks for the detailed explanation BBB.

Now I’m tempted to buy a saliva cortisol test and take some measurements. I need to stop myself before I start doing my own bloodwork :wink:

B.

28

I have another question even when I’m training with just BCAAs in the morning I’m getting really sick. I had 8 boiled eggs for 5 months and I gained an allergy. I assumed this was causing the sickness. But, even now after any kind of moderate weight training I get really light headed, and have to vomit. I still go down and manage to barely finish the workout every day. However its getting to the point that it is really hurting my performance because I’m seeing spots and vomiting just before getting under the bar each time.