T Nation

Training and the Keto Diet

Supplements and Nutrition
#1

I have been doing an ABA - BAB (chest+shoulders+triceps / Legs+back+biceps) Split.

And I train on tuesdays, thursdays and sunday (cardio is done for 35 min on mornings of offdays with only some bcaas and EAAs beforehand).

I heard, however, that in a keto diet, you must do a full body routine on the friday right before starting the refeed. This should completely deplete the glycogen stores and reduce the fat storage.

Any suggestions on how I could incorporate my style of training into this keto protocol? Or will I just have to change my routine to something like (Monday Upper body, Wednesday Lower Body, Friday Total Body)?

tips and suggestions are appreciated.

#2

What would be better?

Monday - Chest/ Shoulders/ Triceps
Tuesday - Legs/ Back/ Biceps
Wednesday- Morning Cardio
THursday - Morning Cardio
Friday - Depletion workout (full body) and begin refeed.
Saturday- Refeed
Sunday - Morning Cardion

or

Monday - Chest/ Shoulders/ Triceps
Tuesday - Morning Cardio
Wednesday- Legs/ Back/ Biceps
THursday - Morning Cardio
Friday - Depletion workout (full body) and begin refeed.
Saturday- Refeed
Sunday - Morning Cardion

would this be a good set up or is there a another template?

#3

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
What would be better?

Monday - Chest/ Shoulders/ Triceps
Tuesday - Legs/ Back/ Biceps
Wednesday- Morning Cardio
THursday - Morning Cardio
Friday - Depletion workout (full body) and begin refeed.
Saturday- Refeed
Sunday - Morning Cardion

or

Monday - Chest/ Shoulders/ Triceps
Tuesday - Morning Cardio
Wednesday- Legs/ Back/ Biceps
THursday - Morning Cardio
Friday - Depletion workout (full body) and begin refeed.
Saturday- Refeed
Sunday - Morning Cardion

would this be a good set up or is there a another template?[/quote]

I’ve done numerous keto diets and after trying every combo, the best is your first one. By wednesday you’re too burnt out to have an effective workout. I usually did an upper/lower split on mon and tues and felt strongest on monday.

You can even split your body to put weak parts on monday since that’s when your strongest. On occasion I did a 3 day split and left non important or strong body parts for wednesday and killed myself on the other body parts on monday tuesday. That worked ok but not as good as just A/B.

#4

cool cool.
With a routine like this, do you think a full big size 24h refeed is necessary? I am consuming 1800-1900 cal on non training days and about 2300-2400 on training days.

I was told that with this level of calories I should need only a big cheat meal on sunday for example.
What are your thoughs?

And if my macros for 1900 kcal are:
50 % fat calories, 40 % protein, 10% carbs (trace carbs from quark,cottage cheese…)

Is that enough to put me in ketosis?

#5

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
cool cool.
With a routine like this, do you think a full big size 24h refeed is necessary? I am consuming 1800-1900 cal on non training days and about 2300-2400 on training days.

I was told that with this level of calories I should need only a big cheat meal on sunday for example.
What are your thoughs?

And if my macros for 1900 kcal are:
50 % fat calories, 40 % protein, 10% carbs (trace carbs from quark,cottage cheese…)

Is that enough to put me in ketosis?[/quote]

It depends on your BF level. Here’s a good outline from CT a while back. http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/refined_physique_transformation

#6

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
cool cool.
With a routine like this, do you think a full big size 24h refeed is necessary? I am consuming 1800-1900 cal on non training days and about 2300-2400 on training days.

I was told that with this level of calories I should need only a big cheat meal on sunday for example.
What are your thoughs?

And if my macros for 1900 kcal are:
50 % fat calories, 40 % protein, 10% carbs (trace carbs from quark,cottage cheese…)

Is that enough to put me in ketosis?[/quote]

I should also say that it is your fat intake that is important.
Your goal is to become fat-adapted, which means consuming a lot of fats compared to carb intake.

As long as you’re getting the calories from eating fats and as little carbs as possible you don’t need a big deficit.

#7

even with a small deficit I still need a big 24 h refeed?
For my 400 kcal deficit, a big cheat meal on a sunday night wouldnt suffice?

ps. sunday heavy lifting day and I workout in the morning. I d eat that meal at night before bed.

good or bad idea?

#8

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
I heard, however, that in a keto diet, you must do a full body routine on the friday right before starting the refeed. This should completely deplete the glycogen stores and reduce the fat storage.

[/quote]
This is the Lyle McDonald school of thought. The premise is that by totally depleting glycogen stores you will be able to supercompensate by following this session with the carb-up.

Having tried many CKDs, I found this personally least effective. It’s also very extreme (through the night refeeds, etc). I always ask the question what is the advantage of consuming 1000g of carbs in a 24 hour refeed period when the body can only accommodate around 300-500g? What happens to the other 500-700g? How about stored as fat - which is exactly what you’re trying to avoid.

Consider a more modest carb up, especially if you have a higher bodyfat range, e.g. 14% upwards. I’ve found that best for me in getting to 10% bodyfat.

#9

and also:
I am on 1900 kcal a day during the low carb days.

Do I increase kcals during training days?

#10

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
and also:
I am on 1900 kcal a day during the low carb days.

Do I increase kcals during training days?[/quote]

I basically took in about 10x my lean body weight in calories during the keto week. Most of it was protein (1.5gms per lb), the rest was essential fats and almost zero carbs. After the depletion workout and throughout the weekend I averaged about 1200 gms of carbs total, low fat moderate protein. The one large carb up meal did not work for me. I didn’t fill me out enough or give me enough energy to hit it hard again on monday and tuesday.
Also as time went on and my metabolism slowed down I had to lower calories even more.

#11

Jamesbrown,

I have been in many crash diets in the past and I lost a lot of weight. Good and bad weight.

I was eating my maintenance level of calories and only a 500 kcal surplus for 2 months. I gained 26 pounds.

So I think a very low carb diet would be a good thing for me. I was never planning on taking mroe than 500 g over 24 hours though. I feel like it would just be stupid.

Do you though that 4 days of keto is enough for me to do my first refeed (start small)?
Today I had my chest workout and most of my lifts stalled.

#12

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
Jamesbrown,

I have been in many crash diets in the past and I lost a lot of weight. Good and bad weight.

I was eating my maintenance level of calories and only a 500 kcal surplus for 2 months. I gained 26 pounds.

So I think a very low carb diet would be a good thing for me. I was never planning on taking mroe than 500 g over 24 hours though. I feel like it would just be stupid.

Do you though that 4 days of keto is enough for me to do my first refeed (start small)?
Today I had my chest workout and most of my lifts stalled.[/quote]

You should check out the Anabolic Diet thread for some more feedback from the guys doing CKDs.

What I would say is that refeeds should be based on your bodyfat levels: the more fat you have to lose the less frequent they should be. During my cut over the summer I had the refeed every 14 days.
What I do know is that you need around 14 days initially to get into the fat adapted stage. After that you can schedule in a carb refeed every 7 days, etc.

Regarding your progress stalling, that happens to everyone at some point. Jumping on to the carbs may help but it may also hinder your fat loss goals.

#13

Most of this is going to be trial and error to see what works best for you. Going the full two weeks before a carb didn’t make much of a difference for me as far as fat loss was concerned, but it did negatively affect my upcoming workouts. And to be honest I’m not sure I believe in the whole getting in the “fat adaption” phase. If you keto cycle weekly you’re going to lose fat regardless, so there’s no point in stretching it out and suffering.

The other thing I have found specific to me is that being in ketosis is more anticatabolic and burns more fat than if I’m not in ketosis. I know a lot of people here debate that, but I’ve tried it every which way under the sun and I definitely lost more fat and retained more muscle(sometimes even gained size and strength) when I was in ketosis during the week and and had a full carb up of at least 1000gms carbs total on the weekend.

But like I said it’s all individual, what works for one person might night be optimal for others. You have to keep experimenting.

#14

as,

How low did you go on calories?
I am at 1900-2000 kcal a day, lifting 3 times a week and doing cardio 1-2 times a week in the mornings at low intensity and on 15 g of EAAs and 5 g bcaa.

My maintenance level is about 2300-2400 kcals. and I my diet breaks down to about 50-60 % fat. The rest protein and trace carbs.

Today I tried my workout (8 days after beginning keto and no refeed) and I had to come home. I could no longer deadlift. I was dead.

My routine went like this:

Squats warm-up (20 min for the entirebody too) + 2 x 5 (182 lbs)
Bent over rows: 6 x 4 (132 lbs)
Deadlifts 3 x 5 (198 lbs)
I couldnt do my second set of deadlifts and I had to go home before doing biceps, abs and calves.

Am I too low On calories or is my body just not responding well to keto?

#15

and I also feel like my muscles decresed size and all lifts have been stalling. Are my calories too high for a full refeed on weekends?

#16

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
as,

How low did you go on calories?
I am at 1900-2000 kcal a day, lifting 3 times a week and doing cardio 1-2 times a week in the mornings at low intensity and on 15 g of EAAs and 5 g bcaa.

My maintenance level is about 2300-2400 kcals. and I my diet breaks down to about 50-60 % fat. The rest protein and trace carbs.

Today I tried my workout (8 days after beginning keto and no refeed) and I had to come home. I could no longer deadlift. I was dead.

My routine went like this:

Squats warm-up (20 min for the entirebody too) + 2 x 5 (182 lbs)
Bent over rows: 6 x 4 (132 lbs)
Deadlifts 3 x 5 (198 lbs)
I couldnt do my second set of deadlifts and I had to go home before doing biceps, abs and calves.

Am I too low On calories or is my body just not responding well to keto?[/quote]

Just so you’re aware you’re not going to feel great, but the way I understand it form your post is that you dieted for 8 straight days and then tried to work out. That’s not going to work because your glycogen depleted. That’s why I prefer full two day carb ups after every 5 days of keto dieting. So start your keto the same day you start your training week.
When you carb up on the weekend (without spilling over) you come back full and strong for your monday/tuesday workouts. Then I did cardio all week and a full body depletion wo on fridays(don’t need strength for this). Then carb up and start all over. As far as calories, like I said I personally stick to about 1-1.25 grms per lb of lean body weight, maybe up to 1.5gms but I personally don’t get great results going really high. Carbs are as low as possible and fats are about 100gms total for the day. I don’t take in as much fat as I used to because of digestive issues with it. Plus it didn’t make a difference or make things easier for me anyway.

#17

A quick little question:
Does eating high calories on training days (e.g. 1800-1900 kcals on rest days + cardio, and 2400-2500 kcals on training days) lead to mass/ strength gain as well?

Woudl that hinder the fatloss a lot and maybe stop ketosis? Would upping the calories mean that the carb ups can be smaller?

#18

bump

#19

[quote]as wrote:

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
What would be better?

Monday - Chest/ Shoulders/ Triceps
Tuesday - Legs/ Back/ Biceps
Wednesday- Morning Cardio
THursday - Morning Cardio
Friday - Depletion workout (full body) and begin refeed.
Saturday- Refeed
Sunday - Morning Cardion

or

Monday - Chest/ Shoulders/ Triceps
Tuesday - Morning Cardio
Wednesday- Legs/ Back/ Biceps
THursday - Morning Cardio
Friday - Depletion workout (full body) and begin refeed.
Saturday- Refeed
Sunday - Morning Cardion

would this be a good set up or is there a another template?[/quote]

I’ve done numerous keto diets and after trying every combo, the best is your first one. By wednesday you’re too burnt out to have an effective workout. I usually did an upper/lower split on mon and tues and felt strongest on monday.

You can even split your body to put weak parts on monday since that’s when your strongest. On occasion I did a 3 day split and left non important or strong body parts for wednesday and killed myself on the other body parts on monday tuesday. That worked ok but not as good as just A/B.

[/quote]

i would just like to add that this isnt a split for a standard keto diet this is for a cyclic keto diet because there are no refeed sessions on a regular keto diet. adkins is a keto diet. dont get me wrong adkins seems to be geared towards fatloss but not healthy fat intake but it is still an example of a real keto diet. on a keto diet you wouldnt need the depletion workouts

#20

[quote]JamesBrawn007 wrote:

[quote]Aprentice wrote:
I heard, however, that in a keto diet, you must do a full body routine on the friday right before starting the refeed. This should completely deplete the glycogen stores and reduce the fat storage.

[/quote]
This is the Lyle McDonald school of thought. The premise is that by totally depleting glycogen stores you will be able to supercompensate by following this session with the carb-up.

Having tried many CKDs, I found this personally least effective. It’s also very extreme (through the night refeeds, etc). I always ask the question what is the advantage of consuming 1000g of carbs in a 24 hour refeed period when the body can only accommodate around 300-500g? What happens to the other 500-700g? How about stored as fat - which is exactly what you’re trying to avoid.

Consider a more modest carb up, especially if you have a higher bodyfat range, e.g. 14% upwards. I’ve found that best for me in getting to 10% bodyfat.

[/quote]

Not so much Lyle McDonald, it was also a Dan Duchaine “Body Opus” diet as he would do upper, lower then full body. He also did 2 days of refeed and wanted to be in ketosis very early on in the week. He had was to ramp the body into ketosis faster. Not sure if Lyle or Dan had the book out first so I just wanted to point it out.

The Anabolic Diet thread would be a good read for you. The kcals you are talking about are really low, unless you are 100-120 pounds!

As for the diet and workout, just a point of reference I was doing DC, I’ve done 5x5, GVT, DC with GVT on a weekly rotation and am now getting ready to start BBB. All my workouts were time based and shortened rest periods. I would train M-W-F and do cardio on T-Th-Sat. I was doing 1 hour of cardio kickboxing twice a week and 1 hour of spin once a week. I have a good amount of BF as I was a powerlifter and didn’t really focus on looks just weights. I can say you will have lower levels by week end if you are training properly, but nothing some add fat can’t fix. I was consistently dropping 2-4 pounds a week and gaining size in my legs, shoulders, back. So it can be done on any level.

Later