T Nation

Train bombings in Spain


What are your common opinions, regarding the brutal, and senseless murders, of innocent, men women and children, by yet another irrational and insane faction of terrorists. I for one am for the immediate and extreme ass-whipping(= kill-em all), of any and every terrorist related group, individual or faction across the globe.. whats it going to take.....Splint,,,


Hands off the IRA.....


Anyone who kills the innocent, intentionally, gives up any human rights they have.

Most nations are fighting at the time and place the terrorists choose. We need to realize that it is a war and take the battle to them, at a time and place of our choosing.

Spain is a staunch ally against terrorism. I think this made them more so. Count on them to be part of any future coalition.


We are still at war. It is not good to forget, or get complacent. That could have easily been Penn Station. This is not a law enforcement activity, whereby we hunt for criminals to prosecute after the crimes are committed, or muzzle investigations of non-citizens because of political concerns.

Did anyone else note the weapons-grade uranium found in Iran, or find it disturbing that the Iranian "peaceful" nuclear program had research facilities on military bases?


Hint: it ain't John Kerry


Don't think anyone disagrees with you on that one. Problem isn't WHAT but HOW. Most current terror groups are like viruses or cancer - you can't kill them without harming the body. The real question is how far would you go trying to kill these viruses.
Terror groups trying to harm the Israeli population, tried almost every cheap trick - hiding behind kids, in ambulances, among civilians etc. So, what would YOU do in these cases?


IRA (I Ran Away)
Usually after they left their timed explosive devices to go off killing innocent people.


The USSR was famous for how it handled terrorists -- it killed the terrorists and their families. They didn't have much of a problem with the terrorists. Similarly China.

We are not a society like those countries, and I wouldn't want to become more like them in terms of their respect for the individual and freedom. However, from a pragmatic standpoint, we also have to realize that there are standards for criminal investigations and civil law enforcement, and there are entirely different standards for military operations - especially when the targets of such are not U.S. citizens and are engaging in a paramilitary campaign against U.S. interests in stark violation of all major military treaties, including the Geneva Convention. FYI, to my understanding, treaties such as the Geneva Convention do not contain unilateral responsibilities -- if your opponent is not following treaty conventions, you do not have to follow treaty conventions.

This problem needs to be treated like a military operation, not a police matter.


You wouldn't be saying that if you'd had friends or loved ones killed by them. I personally have known people seriously hurt by these people just doing their jobs so I object when someone like you comes out with some childish shit like that. Oh and half my family are Catholic and from Eire.



you are one big fuckwit of a retard, how dare you say hands off the IRA, they are a bunch of fucking idiots fronted by sin fein who are lead by an even more stubborn front man (gerry adams who I'm sure you're familiar with since you are SO Irish).

The slaughter of innocent people on sepmeber the 11th must have been fair game in your view since the slaughter of innocents here seems to be fine with you? I hope you never have to worry where your relations are when you here a bomb has gone off and killed people.

Go f*ck yourself you stupid twat




People here are showing sympathy for Spain, and solidarity in the fight against terrorism.


I'm going to post this whole thing because I think James Lileks really has a way with words.

But before I do, I want to excerpt something for Maynard:

" ... To some, the act of "resistance" has such a romantic pull they cannot possibly renounce the use of flamboyant violence - until they find themselves in a train station on an average weekday morning, ears ringing, eyes clouded, looking down at their shirt, wondering why it's so red all of a sudden."


Gnat?s bouncing on the bed with a rabbit, which is really a kangaroo, while the radio restates the death toll: 150 dead, and an unimaginable number of wounded. I dread the day when she starts to listen to the radio, and understand; I wonder what she will think about the world outside Jasperwood. Right now she knows that we live in Minneapolis, in Minnesota, on the Earth. It?s a pretty good place. It has seasons and it has ice cream and it has spring, soon, and it?s where her room is. But at some point kids realize that when daddy said there weren?t any monsters, daddy was telling a lie.

I thought at first it must be Al Qaeda, given the significance of Spain to these horrid farkwits; the whole ?tragedy of Andalusia? thing figures large in their menu of grievances. You think: that was half a millennia ago. Move on. But it?s not as if they are stuck in past history. There is no such thing as history for these people. There is simply a condition that must be changed. The world must submit. The aberration of the Reconquista must be reversed. These are obvious truths. They will come to pass. If you oppose these truths, you oppose God. Look at this great hall, full of the proud and the profane, intent on their wordly lives; if only they knew their sins, they would clamor to take your place and push the button themselves.

I?m somewhat annoyed by the assertion that this act was ?sophisticated,? and hence the work of those brilliant stratgerists of Al Qaeda. My definition of sophistication is somewhat different: it?s an unmanned drone flying over Pakistan, piloted by a guy in Florida, dropping a laser-guided bomb into the passenger cab of a truck full of Taliban. That?s sophistication. Synchronizing watches on detenators is not exactly all that tough. I?ll tell you what?s difficult: a dozen nervous sweating Swedes pulling off 13 simultaneous detonations in Saudi Arabia, where they might stick out. Spain of course is most Spanish; hence the name. But I assume there are enough immigrants living in Madrid, or native-born people of Arab origin, so that a guy walking through a train station with a backpack is about as unusual as a tourist in a loud shirt peering at a map.

Assuming that it was al-Qaeda, of course. The UN seems to have decided otherwise, passing a resolution condemning the ETA. If it was the ETA, well, I have the estimated time of arrival for the success of their cause: three hours after never. I can?t say ?sure doesn?t sound like the ETA,? because as I keep reminding myself: what the hell do I know? I read a lot today, and learned what characterized their earlier attacks; given that info, yes, it seems unlikely it was them. Then we have the claim of credit. Then there?s the van with the incrimating items. Then there?s the Ha?aretz newsflash I just read ? someone said there was a suicide bomber on one of the trains.

There?s a small padded room in my mind where I imagine the theories of the daft: OMG Bushitler did this, it?s part of a campaign to make us ?afraid,? it?ll only get worse. That?s one take, from the foil-chapeau brigade, a decided minority. Then there?s the schadenfreuders: well, Spain supported the war in Iraq. Payback?s a bitch, eh? As if there was some sort of epiphany in the terrorist community: whoa, Spain is assisting the Crusaders now. I know it?s going out on a limb, but I propose adding Spain to the list of Western Christian polyglot democracies to destroy. All in favor, say aye. Of course one can say that the jihadists attacked Spain for its role, but to suggest that Spain earned this atrocity means that the two causes are morally indistinguishable.

To some, they are. To some, the act of "resistance" has such a romantic pull they cannot possibly renounce the use of flamboyant violence - until they find themselves in a train station on an average weekday morning, ears ringing, eyes clouded, looking down at their shirt, wondering why it's so red all of a sudden.

When I heard the Spanish PM?s address to his nation, I was struck by a repeated mention of ?The Constitution.? Spain has one. So does Iraq. Spain was a fascist nation. So was Iraq.

The appeal to a document is more than a nod to flowery words on expensive paper; it?s an appeal to a shared idea, a concept of justice that resides in natural law, a notion of civil society that derives its legitimacy from the assent of the governed, not the dictates of generals. Azanar said:

To defend these causes the Government asks Spaniards to demonstrate tomorrow in the streets of Spain. Under the slogan "With the victims, with the Constitution, for the defeat of terrorism" demonstrations have been called in all Spaniard cities tomorrow Friday at seven in the evening. I wish those demonstrations to be as overwhelming as the pain we feel today, as civic as our patriotism that makes us feel solidarity with all those that suffer the consequences of terrorism's actions.

Better in the original Spanish, I?m sure. You get the point. It makes me admire the Spanish more than ever, I?ll tell you that: after 9/11 the media ? the American overclass ? was all about pain and sympathy and vigils and candles; vengeance and retribution were not invited. Stand up and strike back was not a theme of those awful hours after 9/11. Partly because we didn't know who to hit. Partly because we realized eventually that we would be striking back, hard, soon. The national character best expressed itself by a brief period of introspective mourning, not brutish demands to level half the planet. Bush did not call for massive demonstrations to approve his desire to defeat terrorism. In American terms, that would have been unseemly. Grief first. Then war.

Spain doesn?t have the luxury of 200 years of Constitutional rule. Young adults sitting around the dinner table look at parents who grew up under Franco; they might value freedom more than we do. We cannot possibly imagine losing it. They have heard stories of how quickly it can be lost.

But what do I know? I know nothing. It?s ten o?clock on a cold night in a warm house in a nice town in the middle of North America. Could be ETA. Could be AQ. Could be, as some have said, that this was the opening of the the Islamacist?s front in Europe.

But it's all a front. If there?s a man sitting on a park bench reading about Buddhism: it?s a front. If there?s a woman at the mall with her head uncovered, it?s a front. If there?s a little girl in a school learning about the periodic table, it?s a front. If there?s two women in a park holding hands and sneaking a smooch, it?s a front. If there?s a guy in a room posting to his website his arguments for atheism, it?s a front. If you?re reading your child a story whose hero is a clever pig, you?re living on the edge of the front. If the appointed hour comes and the call to prayer doesn?t drift from the spiky towers, it?s a front.

So what do I hope I'll tell my child? Simple. It's over. We won.


Maynard is just bored. He doesn't even know what the IRA is.


I'm as sure about this as I am the sun will come up in the morning. Some leftist rag somehwere is going to blame the CIA for setting it up to look like AQ so we can get more nasty about our vermin hunt.

Of course we should negotiate with them. Offer them what they want over tea, and then kill every fucking one of them.


Anyone who kills the innocent deserves to die in pain. Maybe now the people of Europe will see that this isn't just an American war. Everyone is at risk and everyone should fight to exterminate terror.


You know the French are tempting fate too. They banned head scarves on Muslim women. The AQ can't be happy about that either.


Even Le Monde maybe turning around, an editorial called "A European Tragedy":

If the trail back to Al-Qaida is confirmed, Europeans should rethink the war against Islamic fundamentalist terrorism, as did the United States after the attacks of September 11, 2001. . . . Will March 11 have in Europe the same effect as September 11 in the US? After having spontaneously expressed their solidarity with the Americans, the Europeans, preoccupied with other forms of terrorism, found that the Americans had become consumed with paranoia. Contrary to the latter in 2001, Europeans today discover not only their own vulnerability, but also that they are confronted with a new phenomenon, mass terrorism. Like the Americans, they may now be forced to admit that a new form of world war has been declared, not against Islam but against totalitarian and violent fundamentalism. That the world's democracies are confronted with the same menace and should act together, using military means and waging at the same time a war for their ideals."<<<<

So Le Monde may even be ready to join the war for democratic civilization, while John Kerry still seems to be mulling a police action.


"I for one am for the immediate and extreme ass-whipping(= kill-em all), of any and every terrorist related group, individual or faction across the globe.. whats it going to take..,,,"

It would help IF WE COULD FIND THEM!

HELLO, that's the problem w/ terrorism, its not an army its a few individuals.

Ever hear of Osama bin Laden?

And terrorism will always exist,and eliminating Saddam Hussein is not going to help much.

THe US has sponsored and is sponsoring what many people consider terrorists in various countries around the world as well as dictators. It works both ways.

Our leaders and their policies are at fault, not we the American people, just like not every Arab is guilty of al Qaeda or every Irishman is responsible for the actions of the IRA.

Every small group of people who ever joined together to fight a larger more powerful enemy is/was a terrorist group if they ever killed someone.

Does that excuse it? Depends on who's judging it. Whoever wins whatever the 2 sides are fighting over will then control the history and majority of viewpoints about it.

THe al qaeda side and their followers are claiming 9-11 to be a great thing. Though I really don't want to write that its true.

We of course have the opposite point of view and if they carry out another attack on US soil, Cheney or Rumsfeld just might dispatch a couple of B2 bombers from Aviano Air Force Base who will enter Afghani/Iragi/Iranian/Pakistani/Libyan airspace in about 3-4 hours and nuke them
to hell...


To defeat terrorism??? why not do it the old style way? Just as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were and had to be totally and completely destroyed to make their leaders AND populations realize that agression is not worth it. Why not destroy our present enemies the same way. Yes it is a horrible and unaccaptable idea for our ultra-sensitive modern mind. Until these attacks start to happen regularly at the train stations/bus stations/shopping malls/elementary schools near you.
sorry my excuse for bloodthirst is this: grew up in communist state and then during civil war...


Spain worked out the solution to its and our problem 500 years ago. It simply expelled all the Arabs from its country.