T Nation

TP vs TE


I am nearly ready to do my first cycle. I've read and listened to a lot of information over the past year or two concerning the topic of AAS. I really like the "Steroid Newbie Cycle Planning" thread by FuriousGeorge on this site.http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/steroid_planning.

When ready I will basically use his plan with the serm pct method rather than the tapper method. My question here is weather to use TE or TP and why. It seems that TE is the choice for the majority of experienced AAS users. But consider: I have a history of gyno. I first experienced it right after I hit puberty around age 13.

My symptoms weren't severe and only lasted a month or so, but I understand that most men and boys never experience this during puberty. Later, in my mid twenty's I experienced gyno toward the end of my third PH cycle. The last time I had a "flair up" was when I had a shoulder injury and could not lift at all for nearly 6 weeks. Note: my latest "flair up" had nothing to do with PH, AAS, or puberty.

I simply stopped lifting (still did cardio) and my body reacted. This leads me to believe that yes, I am one of those who has a predisposition to gyno. Back to my question. I realize that some more experienced AAS users will blend TE and TP or use them at different phases of the cycle in order to ramp up or jump start gains.

As this will be my first, I would rather just stick to one or the other to keep it as simple as possible. I under stand that the half life of TP is less than TE and that TP users need to dose more frequently. So, now that you know a little bit about my history and my way of thinking, I pose the question to you, experienced AAS users: TP or TE for me?




I don't think using one or the other will have any different effect on possible gyno, only in that using prop, it may obviously hit you faster, which may be a good reason to use prop so your can discontinue and get it out of your system quicker if gyno is out of control, take a moderate dose of adex and have letro and nolva ready just in case.

one more thing which you probably already know, Ed pinning for prop, twice a week for e. If you don't mind the extra pins I say prop.


Thanks bro.

Why adx instead of letro for my AI? Why letro just in case?


Letro is just much more aggressive and easy to crash your e on. I would use it in an emerhency type situation but that's just me.




What more do you want to know??


Hes right, the only benefit to short esters is the ability to more readily control your blood levels. Depending on how frequently (or infrequently) you plan on pinning your long ester, you may have an undulating release of test into your blood, which when coupled with unsatisfactory use of AI can result in erratic hormone levels. This is generally considered unwise. You can always pin long esters ED too, but if you plan on doing that you might as well use prop to get it in faster and minimize downtime before PCT; I prefer short esters. That is probably the safest route to go, but after having done a ten week cycle pinning everyday with a 1.5'' 23g horse needles, believe me when I tell you that deep IM injections for ED shots blows. Hard. Learn to backload insulin pins to shoot subq and your life will be much easier, and without all the pain, micro scarring, potential nerve damage or vein injects that deep IM shots can do.

Aside from that, it makes no difference concerning gyno, this will be contingent upon:

  1. Genetic predisposition
  2. Your understanding and use of AI to control estrogen.

Keep some nolva's if it begins to flare up but ideally you want to prevent it right? Learn how the more popular AI drugs function. I've never used letrozole so I've never really researched it thus I can't talk about it but I can talk briefly about arimidex and aromasin.

Arimidex is a reversible competitive inhibitor thus it interferes with the conversion of T to E by gumming up whats going on at the receptor site itself. Its quite effective at doing so, the standard dose being around .5mg EOD, or as I prefer .25mg ED, with even these small doses dropping estrogen levels by a whopping 80ish %. However the aromatase enzyme that facilitates the conversion of T to E is still floating around, unable to be utilized. For this reason it is unwise to use intermittently, i.e., its useful on cycle while taking it consistently, but not a good idea to take sporadically during pct, or to discontinue use suddenly before pct as all these enzymes floating around can cause a rebound in estrogen levels once they get a chance to work again. (i believe letrozole works in a similar fashion it simply binds reversibly to something on the enzyme itself, and being reversible implies again it would be best with consistent, not intermittent, usage)

Aromasin is a suicide inhibitor, and being structurally similar to aromatase targets, binds to the aromatase enzyme itself, halting the conversion of T to E by rendering the enzyme inert. Its not as effective, the standard dose being 25mg/day (preferably dosed 2x a day at 12.5 mg and consumed with fat that facilitates its absorption). However, considering that it does away with the aromatase enzyme until your body produces more, aromasin is better suited for intermittent use, such as during pct. Some would recommend not using AI at all during pct, but since pct drugs in fact do raise testosterone levels above normal it may be useful to have some on hand (particularly if you are not using nolva, which you should be using).

Identifying the signs of high or low estrogen is important too as it allows you to tinker with your dosage. You don't want too high estrogen but you don't want to tank it either. Assuming you arent a scientist and won't be doing blood tests on the daily, you kinda have to go by feel. Rule of thumb is as follows:

Libido loss and water retention: too much estrogen
Libido loss and dry/achy joints: too little estrogen

Start at the standard dose and adjust accordingly. Some will claim that they dont use any AI during cycle, I would suggest this is unwise, particularly for those with a predisposition towards gyno, however there are worse things to contend with when dealing with high estrogen levels in the male body, things not so obvious either.

*On a side note, I'm not particular prone to gyno but I have experienced swollen nipple glands before. I believe this to have occurred from using too many 'types' of steroids at the same time. Alot of them have different mechanisms of action, are or mimic different hormones, etc, but some of them work along the same lines and I think I experienced this response to a bit of overlap. I think 3 compounds at a time is a good number, 3 injectables or 2 and an oral work fine for me, maybe changing some out for others or tinkering with doses during cycle. Of course I'm sure some take way more, but I havent yet and can't comment on how to do that safely.

hope this helps


C.M.I. -

Can you clarify please?

" but not a good idea to take sporadically during pct, or to discontinue use suddenly before pct "

I get the part about not taking sporadically, but if I don't discontinue use suddenly before pct, how would I go about discontinuing use and starting pct?