T Nation

Total Athleticism Hybrid


#1

Hey guys, just had a wacky idea I may be trying. Just did most of the calculating and hoped you guys can rate the idea when I wrote it up. Besides, this may be something and it's gonna be forgotten if it isn't wrote up.

So this is a very long term, pretty high frequency program consisting of the Front Squat (FS) and conventional deadlift (DL)and Hang Power Snatch (SN). The progression at the Snatches haven't been thougth out yet.
I'm just figuring this out, and I don't know what I will do with the upper body yet. Probably a same bare minimum method. Pull ups and Military Presses maybe.

The Plan is:
Squat pattern: FS 5 times a week.
Hinge pattern: DL 2 times a week. SN 3 times a week.

Thinking of this kind of build up:
FS DL SN
========================================================
Mon x x
Tue x x
Wed x x
Thu
Fri x x
Sat x x
Sun

High frequentie because I need a crapload of progression opportunities to make it work. HF is chosen because I train for martial arts every day, so I want to be strong all the time, not a zombie for two days after training 2 times a week.

Okay now the progression, this is tricky.

The double progression system explained by Christian Thibaudeau will be used. First we take calculate the 1RM from the 5RM or 3RM. Make it true. Not too ammonia-sniffed artificialy high. But don't wuss out! The program is gonna start really light. It's in kilos for my european brain, relax, works the same with lbs, for the yanks;)
As example for 1 RM:
DL: 240 KG
FS: 170 KG
SN: IDK, this isn't a regular snatch. not relevant for this post yet.

Next, drop to 75% of each lift. This is the weight of all working sets at the start. so for DL that is 180 kg, for the FS 125 KG (roughly).

The DL will be a 5x3 (sets x reps) progression.The FS will be a 5x5 profression: the point is nailing all reps for all sets and then move up in weight. Always do every set.
Little twist: the reps will be set, no trying here, just folowing the program to the T.

Front squat: 5,4,3,2,1 (10 short of completing this weight)
Deadlift: 3,2,2,1,1 (6 short of completing the weight)

Every workout you do the movement, you are adding 1 rep, until every set has 5(FS) or 3(DL) reps. This wil take 2 weeks for squats (5x2=10), 3 weeks for deadlifts (2x3=6).

When we hit the rep objective, we add 5 kilos (10 lbs) to the squat. we add 10 kilos (20 lbs) to the deadlift. This will be respectively after 2 and 3 weeks.

This is real pretty progression, starting really light, but it will be working for a time up to a half-year. Probably even more.

After 18 weeks, you will be deadlifting your former 1RM for 5x3.
After 18 weeks you will be squatting your former 1RM for 5x5.
You have mastered your former 1RM now completely, now starts the fun!

After a bit more than half a year (30 weeks). Your working weight for the DL will be 100 kg more than at start. For th FS this will be 75 kg more. Taking in consideration that there should be a ratio of roughly 62% between the lifts, and the squats will be done for 2 reps per set more, this will be about right.

The hang snatches will be building up the deadlift without the same CNS stress and getting you explosive as hell.

What do you guys think?


#2

Before I forget it!
The weight taken as 1RM are a bit high… this kind of linear progression probably will be a bit high after 30 weeks for most intermediate lifters.
It works alot like SS but far slower and far more frequency, so it is suited for people who aren’t really novices anymore.
So, this probably works better for lifters who aren’t as strong as the example yet, maybe some who are determined to deadlift 700 lbs and
front squat 450.

probably this will work after SS to accustom to high frequency training. Even for some more advanced lifters.

Maybe a deload of 10% when stalled, like i said, i havent figured this out yet.

I’m hoping for some feedback/experience of you guys. Maybe even a guinea pig;)

When something crosses my mind, you will be the first to know.

Panopticum


#3

My post got a bit butchered…

the scheme is:
DL on wed and sat (days before off-day)
FS on mon, tue, wed, fri and sat (every on-day)
SN on mon, tue and fri (non DL days)

Total athleticism isn’t really the name of the topic, it should be called the 'HFT/easy strength hybrid’
My fault, tried to overpimp the titel and the mod adjusted it, it didnt come out the right way


#4

No presses or pulls?

I would give it a try, see what you learn, and adjust based on it. At first glance, it looks like it might be too much weekly volume on the front squats. I don’t have a better solution, just something to consider. 10-15lbs might be a better weight to progress the deadlift too.


#5

Well, i probably fill up the gaps with OHP’s and pull ups. Maybe some dips.
Probably same build up for those.

I don’t wanna lower frequency, and probably samee volume. Couple of coaches advocate HF greatly. Maybe i start out at 70% so i ease into the frequecy.


#6

Well, i probably fill up the gaps with OHP’s and pull ups. Maybe some dips.
Probably same build up for those.

I don’t wanna lower frequency, and probably samee volume. Couple of coaches advocate HF greatly. Maybe i start out at 70% so i ease into the frequecy.


#7

Have you ever heard of Anthony Ditillo? This is pretty close to the style of training he advocated.

The only thing I would recommend is that you don’t get married to any particular exercises. You’ll always hit your legs, but sometimes you might do lunges or goblet squats or something. Shrugs or cleans instead of snatch pulls, you get the idea. Keep the “movement patterns” the same, but switch the lifts if you need to to stay fresh.


#8

Thanks for the input Farmer! I will most certainly look up Anthony.

Yeah, maybe I got caught a bit up in the whole strength-skill stuff. 2 times a week deads will probably not too much, the hang snatches also can be done for the skill work. Maybe I could implement some RDL’s and sumo pulls. Not too much.

But for the front squats you are right I think. With this progression model (if I keep it in) I need high frequency to get the weight up.
Yet 1 day of BSS’s, 1 day of Zercher squats and 3 days of FS will give some variety and strengthen weak points.

Keep it coming!


#9

Oh, no. You don’t need to plan the change ups at this point. Just kind of adjust to them naturally, as things come up.

One day, your wrist may be sore, so shrug and back squat to unload your wrist.

Another time you may be worn out from practicing drop kicks or whatever. That day you do some leg extensions and cable rows and call it enough.

Have a basic plan, keep to the “theme” and adjust when you need to.

As you become more trained the “skill” from one exercise kinda bleeds over to other exercises. At first, cleans and snatches feel way different. As you get to a more intermediate level, improving one can also improve the other. You’ll find all kinds of lifts that “carry-over” during your lifting career.


#10

–Okay, I understand what you mean with it. Adjusting a bit on the fly. Well, that sounds great in theory, and probably works for you, like most disciplined people… That will be a great thing to keep in mind.
TBH, I was trying to make a program that can be followed to the T, I explain this in a second:)

(BTW, I just got a primitive rack (like in klokov vids), barbell and rings. So machine stuff isn’t gonna work. Few good gyms here, just ellipticals in a row. )

–The bleed-over of excercises is a intresting thing. Think it is about getting better at activating the muscle, so using strength. And getting better coordinated all over. Pretty intressting question.

–My original intent when writing this concept was making it a bit ‘bulgarian’:few excercises done every day. My theory was that if I build it up the bare basics slowly, weak points will disapear on the run. Maybe a bit foolish, but hey, can try.

–In this bulgarian/John Broz mind-set, I believe in the ‘floating pain’. So if your wrist feels bust up, work thru it, it will get better sooner than if you babied it. A program that should be followed to the T makes it more doable, just mauvais faux (Im a nerd), blame the program, but just do it…

++As a last thing, Farmer, how do you train/what is your philosophy (if you have one)? Tips from a veteran. I love those little gems!
I heard out LoRez earlier, but everything he can share will be greatly aprecciated :slight_smile:


#11

Man, it’s hard to sum up a whole career in one paragraph and call it a philosophy. But here is a piece of an article that really gave me some stuff to think about.

"When lifters repeatedly use the same simple method of training to raise their strength level, they will eventually stall. Like the scholar who must utilize many sources of information to achieve a higher level of knowledge, the lifter must incor-porate new and more difficult exercises to raise their standards. Many have the theory that to squat, bench, or deadlift more, you simply have to do the three lifts. If it were that simple no one would need special exercises, machines, or systems of training. But we know this is not true.

Because lifters have different body types, they may excel at one lift but struggle with another. The great Lamar Gant was the only lifter I have known who held the world record deadlift and bench at the same time. There are men who hold three world records in the deadlift, yet can?t make the top 10 bench list. Their muscles in the upper body are, I?m sure, as strong as anyone?s, but they are limited by body structure, e.g., short torso, long arms. Many of us are affected by this. But is there an answer?

In the early 1970s, the Dynamo Club in the former Soviet Union had 70 highly skilled Olympic lifters. They were introduced to a system of 20-45 special exercises that were grouped into 2-4 exercises per work-out and were rotated as often as necessary to make continuous progress They soon found out that as the squat, good morning, back raise, glute/ham raise, or special pulls got stronger, so did their Olympic lifts. When asked about the system, only one lifter was satisfied with the number of special lifts; the rest wanted more to choose from. And so the conjugate system was originated.

When you have a body type that lacks say, the muscles that squat and yet you squat on a regular ba-sis, then a coupling of special exercises for the glutes, hamstrings, hips, and lower back are needed to fortify those areas. These special exercises will en-able you to raise your squat once more.

Think about it if you read only one book, no matter how many times you read it, you will only learn so much. If you only squat, you will get only so strong because no new stimulus is introduced. This may not happen in the early stages of training, but as you become more advanced, you will need a more strenuous method of training. This training will indeed help your motor potential and help you to perfect your technical skill."

http://westside-barbell.com/articles-by-louie-simmons/articles-published-in-2003/353-the-conjugate-method


#12

Nice stuff farmer! Westside-style

I may not always agreeing with him, but Louis Simmons knows how to deliver results.
succes leaves clues so Im figuring out what i can learn from him.

what do you think about the article?


#13

Not to be that guy, but you’re off in your counting. Progressing from 5-4-3-2-1 to 5x5 will take 11 workouts, slightly over 2 weeks. There are 11 numbers from 15 to 25, inclusive. One of the days you’ll have to jump by 2 reps…perhaps over the weekend.


#14

Damn, i knew i sucked in math haha.
Thanks for pointing out the error! The jump the weekend (second rest day) is a great i guess it would be used in the first week the weight is used. That would make the jump at monday of the new weight. Easier to count.

Not wanting to ambush you jskrabac, but do you have a gem of wisdom for us?
Would you like this program? It seems like you know how to make the upperback Grow! Maybe some tips for that?


#15

That article just made me think about how I could “build” my lifts, and how lifts carry over to each other.

I could do deadlifts, to train my deadlift. Or I could do Hang cleans to train my hang clean. The best way to “train” them was to practice with weights I could handle. Never miss reps, all reps smooth, etc.

But I could also work really hard for 3 weeks on Romainian dl’s and bent over rows. If I added weight, reps, and sets and pushed hard every workout I could make rapid gains on these assistance exercises and build the muscles of my hamstrings and upper back. Then I could use this new muscle to drive up my weights in the deadlift and clean.

Or I could totally drop Deadlifts, but do front squats and stiff leg deads for awhile. After a month, I could go back, test my conventional deadlift, and see if I got stronger.

Picking up an atlas stone is a lot like front squatting. So if I can’t go play with stones I can front squat and get some carryover.

If I got better at wrestling, I’d be a better offensive lineman in football.

It really helped me see the difference between “training” and just exercising. If practicing a skill only makes you better at that 1 thing, maybe do less of it. If practicing 1 skill makes you better at many other things, practice that skill a lot.


#16

I see what you mean, totaly agree. Like the ole catchphrase ‘big bang for your buck’ every training article has sporting since 2003 haha

I know Im slapping your face with this guy: Max Shank
He is all about carry over. He has some articles on t nation. One of his pillars is handstand work: in one of his articles (maybe at T) he states handstands carry over to military pressing than vice versa. I even thought he said HSPU’s will do more for all OHP than anything else, not sure.

The atlas stones, o yeah! Always wanted to use them, never got the chance yet. They appear so incredibly ‘real world’: awkward to pick up, long range of motion. In a article of diesel strength they compare them to O lifts.

BTW most strongman stuff seems to be suited for high spill over strength. Especially atlas stones, farmer walks and log lifts seems to hammer every aspect of strength. Maybe you had the privilege to train with them and have some experience?

Side rant: Carryover seems to be a thing I notice in whole life. In the later years of high school it seems that every subject (spare math) blended and bleeded over in each other. Vastly different themes in the past seemed unseperetable.
Also with confidence i guess. Feeling great with a girl I loved to the moon and back, boosted my grades, social life, personal and athletic prowess just because of the feeling of confidence and helping me live in the moment.

Little too cute, I know, but it’s a strong example of carryover.
If a concept works in training it usualy does in life. Most things we do is just life in a micro-cosm, training is no exception IMO


#17

[quote]Panopticum wrote:
Damn, i knew i sucked in math haha.
Thanks for pointing out the error! The jump the weekend (second rest day) is a great i guess it would be used in the first week the weight is used. That would make the jump at monday of the new weight. Easier to count.

Not wanting to ambush you jskrabac, but do you have a gem of wisdom for us?
Would you like this program? It seems like you know how to make the upperback Grow! Maybe some tips for that?[/quote]

Sorry for the late reply. I actually don’t have much experience with HF stuff on the big BB movements. I found my sweet spot for strength gains awhile back was training a squat and DL variation each 2x/week though. One day was heavy DL + reps front squats, the other was heavy back squats + reps TB DL. I still threw in one accessory hip hinge movement and one knee extension movement in addition to forward and backward sled pulls.

As far as upperback, I attribute alot of my growth and detail to a period of time when I was effectively hitting back 4x/week. 2x/week I had days focused on flat and overhead press. Between sets I always did supersets targeting rear delts, external rotators, traps, and rhomboids. 2x/week I had dedicated back days targeting the lats.


#18

Thanks for the reply!

Staggered upperback work always attracted me. Nice to have someone with a back like a map also feeling the same.
I feel like I need more frequency but good to hear this works for you. Experience is beyond worth!

BTW I saw a awesome simplistic program with alot of frequency on Thibs log, think I’m gonna give that a try. A little more ‘scientific’ than this idea of mine. Yet pretty much the same. Put in sprints, farmers walks and loads of staggered upperback work and we have a great program I think.