T Nation

Topical 1-Androsterone

Just wanted to spread the word that Primordial Performance is coming out with a topical 1-androsterone product called “1-T.” 1-androsterone (aka 1-DHEA) readily converts to 1-testosterone, a highly anabolic substance that can’t aromatize.

Primordial claims that the skin actually contains a lot of the enzymes that convert 1-andro into 1-testosterone which is why they are using a topical delivery.

I personally missed out on the glory days of MAG-10, but it sounds like this stuff is going to be quite similar. Primordial has said that the product will be available in limited quantities tomorrow on their website.

I suppose it depends on what one means by “readily.”

Not one but two enzymatic conversions are required. If only 1 occurs, you’re not going to get 1-testosterone from this compound.

Both conversions are reversible so it’s not the case that there’s a tendency for everything to go in the desired direction. While the equilibrium won’t be exactly at the halfway point for each one, nor will the reactions go all the way to equilibrium, let’s assume for simplicity that the 50/50 point is reached for each conversion.

In this case, only 1/4 of what compound goes through the skin will wind up converted to the claimed compound to which it “readily converts.”

By the way, 4-androsterone was tried by others as an oral supplement on the theory that it would undergo the same 2 conversions and be a useful precursor to testosterone.

It was not only in practice so useless that it was a complete failure in practice, but it was so useless that though known to exist, the government didn’t bother to schedule it while scheduling all other prohormones.

It is also a known fact that DHEA has the same substituents at the 3 and 17 positions at this compound, and transdermal delivery does not result in much metabolism at those positions for DHEA. So I would not assume it for this compound either.

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[quote]I suppose it depends on what one means by “readily.”

Not one but two enzymatic conversions are required. If only 1 occurs, you’re not going to get 1-testosterone from this compound.

Both conversions are reversible so it’s not the case that there’s a tendency for everything to go in the desired direction. While the equilibrium won’t be exactly at the halfway point for each one, nor will the reactions go all the way to equilibrium, let’s assume for simplicity that the 50/50 point is reached for each conversion.

In this case, only 1/4 of what compound goes through the skin will wind up converted to the claimed compound to which it “readily converts.”[/quote]

That may be true, but even if it doesn’t yield 1-Test it will convert to 1-Adione and 1-Adiol with only one conversion. I’ve heard plenty of people get great results from 1-AD, some say even better than 1-Test.

[quote]By the way, 4-androsterone was tried by others as an oral supplement on the theory that it would undergo the same 2 conversions and be a useful precursor to testosterone.

It was not only in practice so useless that it was a complete failure in practice, but it was so useless that though known to exist, the government didn’t bother to schedule it while scheduling all other prohormones.

It is also a known fact that DHEA has the same substituents at the 3 and 17 positions at this compound, and transdermal delivery does not result in much metabolism at those positions for DHEA. So I would not assume it for this compound either.[/quote]

Not sure if this is relevant, but much the same can be said about oral DHEA and the conversion to testosterone. It is well known that DHEA is not only not very bio-available orally, but it also seems that it does not readily convert to test in men (particularly young men).

On the other hand, Primordial also makes a topical DHEA product which is absorbed very well and, due to the high concentration of specific enzymes in the skin, is more readily converted into testosterone. I have experienced this first hand.

[quote]eic wrote:

That may be true, but even if it doesn’t yield 1-Test it will convert to 1-Adione and 1-Adiol with only one conversion. I’ve heard plenty of people get great results from 1-AD, some say even better than 1-Test.[/quote]

Good results from 1-AD (I assume you mean the dione by this abbreviation) can have resulted only from there being so much 1-AD delivered that the body produced a good amount of 1-T from it. So it is not that the conversion at the 17-position (from 1-AD to 1-T) was shown unnecessary by this example.

There is no way that an equal amount of 1-AD in the blood can result in better (or for that matter as good) results as an equal amount of 1-T, because if anything whatsoever is known about the structure/activity relationships of androgens,

It is that 17-keto compounds (which 1-AD is) are extremely weak and require conversion to the corresponding 17-hydroxy (which 1-T) is to be effective.

So yes, this product will need both conversions to be effective, at least with regard to conversion only at the 3-position (yielding 1-AD) to be insufficient.

You do have a point that I failed to cover that there may be some activity to 1-androstenediol. It seemed a lot less effective in our testing than hoped for, though, so I wasn’t giving much credit to partial conversion to 1-androstenediol

(also as that wasn’t being claimed in the original post) but it’s true that probably some small credit may belong to that. Or it may be the case that 1-androstenediol doesn’t have intrinsic activity but like 1-AD requires conversion to 1-T. I don’t think there is any scientific data on that at all.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
eic wrote:

That may be true, but even if it doesn’t yield 1-Test it will convert to 1-Adione and 1-Adiol with only one conversion. I’ve heard plenty of people get great results from 1-AD, some say even better than 1-Test.

Good results from 1-AD (I assume you mean the dione by this abbreviation) can have resulted only from there being so much 1-AD delivered that the body produced a good amount of 1-T from it. So it is not that the conversion at the 17-position (from 1-AD to 1-T) was shown unnecessary by this example.

There is no way that an equal amount of 1-AD in the blood can result in better (or for that matter as good) results as an equal amount of 1-T, because if anything whatsoever is known about the structure/activity relationships of androgens,

It is that 17-keto compounds (which 1-AD is) are extremely weak and require conversion to the corresponding 17-hydroxy (which 1-T) is to be effective.

So yes, this product will need both conversions to be effective, at least with regard to conversion only at the 3-position (yielding 1-AD) to be insufficient.

You do have a point that I failed to cover that there may be some activity to 1-androstenediol. It seemed a lot less effective in our testing than hoped for, though, so I wasn’t giving much credit to partial conversion to 1-androstenediol

(also as that wasn’t being claimed in the original post) but it’s true that probably some small credit may belong to that. Or it may be the case that 1-androstenediol doesn’t have intrinsic activity but like 1-AD requires conversion to 1-T. I don’t think there is any scientific data on that at all.

[/quote]

So you think 1-Adiol and 1-Adione have decently powerful effects on their own even without conversion to 1-Test?

Also, the product is now available for a pre-sale. I personally think it is worth experimenting with, particularly since it sounds like most no one has much experience with transdermal delivery of 1-androsterone.

[quote]eic wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:

Good results from 1-AD (I assume you mean the dione by this abbreviation) can have resulted only from there being so much 1-AD delivered that the body produced a good amount of 1-T from it. So it is not that the conversion at the 17-position (from 1-AD to 1-T) was shown unnecessary by this example.

There is no way that an equal amount of 1-AD in the blood can result in better (or for that matter as good) results as an equal amount of 1-T, because if anything whatsoever is known about the structure/activity relationships of androgens, it is that 17-keto compounds (which 1-AD is) are extremely weak and require conversion to the corresponding 17-hydroxy (which 1-T) is to be effective.

You do have a point that I failed to cover that there may be some activity to 1-androstenediol. It seemed a lot less effective in our testing than hoped for, though, so I wasn’t giving much credit to partial conversion to 1-androstenediol (also as that wasn’t being claimed in the original post) but it’s true that probably some small credit may belong to that. Or it may be the case that 1-androstenediol doesn’t have intrinsic activity but like 1-AD requires conversion to 1-T. I don’t think there is any scientific data on that at all.

So you think 1-Adiol and 1-Adione have decently powerful effects on their own even without conversion to 1-Test?
[/quote]

I don’t.

Has anybody tried this yet?

Here is a link to the write up and a couple of logs on the product :
anabolicminds.com/forum/primordial-
performance/109687-1-t-officially.html

(i know, i linked another forum, im sorry, but i felt it was appropriate)