Too Many Supps

My aim is to gain muscle, whilst remaining lean, I am currently around 184lb, 5ft 11, and body fat% - top 4 abs visible, lean enough for now, but ultimately would want to be leaner. I eat a pretty good diet, mixed, but generally 300+g prot, 150~g fat and 100~g carbs, per day spread into smaller meals, but concentrated in the morning and around training.

In terms of supplements, I was thinking about the following protocol.

-2g fish oil with breakfast and last meal of the day.
-1.7g beta alanine & 1g Acetyl L-Carnitine with breakfast, lunch and pre workout.
-1g l-tyrosine, 200mg caffeine, 5g taurine, 20g bcaa pre-workout
-30g whey post workout.
-ZMA 1 hour before bed.

I was thinking of also using Creatine, Glutamine, Carbs and protein peri workout, and AAKG pre, but I was less sure on these than the above.

Obviously good diet and good training are more important, but I like supplements, the precise routine appeals to my OCD side, and obv. I want the best results possible.

Any thoughts on the above?

Thanks in advance.

That is not too many, unless finances just don’t permit or make unwise.

I don’t think it’s optimal – having only whey postworkout for example is not best – but it’s not too much.

The glutamine and AAKG are probably your least bang-for-the-buck items. The field of amino acid “GH releasers” has long been a disappointing one. It is very possible that the only thing that happens is an increased spike followed by correspondingly less production the rest of the way: in other words, no increase in area-under-the-curve, but only a change in timing. So far as I know increased total daily production from an amino-acid “GH releaser” has never been shown.

I do it anyway myself but it’s dubious.

You also may not do well with 5 g taurine at a time (it’s possible you’ll get the runs from it.)

you think that’s a lot ? try 36 grams fish oil each day

Thanks Bill, finances allow for the above, and probably would for the additional ones I mentioned. I haven’t read many studies on AAKG/OAKG, but anecdotally they seem to be popular with more advanced trainees. With this GH spike, would it in some way enhance your training session, if the spike coincided with the gym time?

In the past I have used 30g whey/30g dextrose/30g maltodextrin postworkout, but I have found this to be very sweet, filling and haven’t been able to immediately notice any greater gains.

What would you think to sipping a protein/carbs/glutamine/creatine drink towards the end of a workout and finishing it whilst leaving the gym?

I have been reading about Palitanose/Vitargo as new carb supplements, would you say these are worth the extra cost, over Malto/Dextrose?

One more carbs based question: would you say that carbs are more important post-workout, to replenish glycogen stores, or to spike insulin and get nutrients to the muscles faster? In the case of the former, does that mean, Ultra Fine Oats/Waizy Max Starch would be good post work out choices?

Thanks again!

[quote]cyph31 wrote:
you think that’s a lot ? try 36 grams fish oil each day[/quote]

36!!!What on earth for? have you been reading Thibs stuff, and are you 36%bf?:wink:

I meant too many different supps. I have gone as high as 18g/day, but I just get fish burps, so now 2-4 works out well for me.

As you stated, training and diet are more important.

I took the route of (about 2yrs ago) dropping all supplements (was taking a bunch at the time) for about 6months and really concentrating on getting my diet dialed in and my training figured out. Once I did that I started to add back in some of the staples. Whey, creatine (which I took back out 7mo later), fish oil an a multi.

Now that’s all I’m taking (oh and Vit. D) and my training, diet, physical appearance has drastically (i think) changed; as well as my lifts have gone well in that time frame.

Cliff notes: Start from the ground and take one step (supplement) at at time and make sure you’re actually gaining something from it.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
That is not too many, unless finances just don’t permit or make unwise.

I don’t think it’s optimal – having only whey postworkout for example is not best – but it’s not too much.

The glutamine and AAKG are probably your least bang-for-the-buck items. The field of amino acid “GH releasers” has long been a disappointing one. It is very possible that the only thing that happens is an increased spike followed by correspondingly less production the rest of the way: in other words, no increase in area-under-the-curve, but only a change in timing. So far as I know increased total daily production from an amino-acid “GH releaser” has never been shown.

I do it anyway myself but it’s dubious.

You also may not do well with 5 g taurine at a time (it’s possible you’ll get the runs from it.)
[/quote]

You must be stark-raving mad! Glutamine is shown to improve endurance, strength, speed, power etc. It is an absolute must-have. Right next to creatine, whey, BCAAs and fish oils. I’ve been using it for a while now, with fantastic results I might add. I’m using met-rx glutamine. This magic powder especially comes in handy during a cutting phase.

Happy liftin!

[quote]Sepulnation wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
That is not too many, unless finances just don’t permit or make unwise.

I don’t think it’s optimal – having only whey postworkout for example is not best – but it’s not too much.

The glutamine and AAKG are probably your least bang-for-the-buck items. The field of amino acid “GH releasers” has long been a disappointing one. It is very possible that the only thing that happens is an increased spike followed by correspondingly less production the rest of the way: in other words, no increase in area-under-the-curve, but only a change in timing. So far as I know increased total daily production from an amino-acid “GH releaser” has never been shown.

I do it anyway myself but it’s dubious.

You also may not do well with 5 g taurine at a time (it’s possible you’ll get the runs from it.)

You must be stark-raving mad! Glutamine is shown to improve endurance, strength, speed, power etc. It is an absolute must-have. Right next to creatine, whey, BCAAs and fish oils. I’ve been using it for a while now, with fantastic results I might add. I’m using met-rx glutamine. This magic powder especially comes in handy during a cutting phase.

Happy liftin!
[/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/diet_performance_nutrition_supplements/effects_of_glutamine

You must not know who Bill Roberts is. Anyway not to move off topic but there is a recent glutamine thread.

My staples are Flameout, protein powder, bcaa, creatine, superfood alternated with a multivit, ZMA, vit-d.

[quote]toby_w wrote:
Thanks Bill, finances allow for the above, and probably would for the additional ones I mentioned. I haven’t read many studies on AAKG/OAKG, but anecdotally they seem to be popular with more advanced trainees. With this GH spike, would it in some way enhance your training session, if the spike coincided with the gym time?[/quote]

That is (and for a long time has been) the theory, which sounds reasonable enough… it’s just that results don’t seem to match up.

On the other hand, as to whether the theory is reasonable, let’s stipulate that:

  1. It isn’t demonstrated that total GH release over the course of the day and night occurs with this usage, only that a spike occurs. Possibly just releasing GH that was going to be released a little later anyway.

  2. That not only isn’t it demonstrated, that it isn’t the case that more total GH is released.

If this is right, then results from injectable GH indicate it’s really the amount taken per day that matters, not whether the GH is provided at the time of the workout.

So if so, then a pulse produced by AAKG/OAKG or other amino acid GH releasers wouldn’t give any benefit.

Could explain a lot, if it’s the case.

I think you’ll be better off having at least some carbs rather than just the straight whey. Even if it was only 20 or 30 grams of just the maltodextrin, if you dislike sweetness.

Not everyone benefits as much from carbs as others: it could be that high carb intake really is not the way to go for you.

Sure. If you like I think most can train with food of that sort in the stomach, it’s a good plan. Really the only reason not to is if being one of those that just doesn’t like food in the stomach while training, almost no matter how light.

Some at Biotest have worked with quite a few or possibly a lot (I don’t know the number) of athletes with these things. I have not and can speak only of my own experience.

But my own experience is not going to be very typical on this because first, I handle carbs better than most I think, and rehydrate better than most I think. At any rate I have zero troubles with either.

So I have less need for palatinose than others that may handle carbs only typically well or even just not well, or those that have trouble fully rehydrating when taking in their carbs as glucose under conditions involving a lot of sweat loss.

However I like the palatinose products (Surge Workout Fuel and Finibar) that I use, in that there is not the tendency to crash as the glucose is taken up but the insulin release triggered by the glucose intake still hangs around.

So it’s a smoother ride so to speak even if having no issues with handling carbs whatsoever. But a whole lot of people handle carbs less than optimally well and I can see where they could have a great deal of benefit.

It’s easy enough to increase glycogen stores at a later time, so it doesn’t seem that could be the explanation for observed benefit. And the insulin explanation makes a lot of sense, so I think that is it.

Thee may be advantages of waxy maize starch over glucose but I lack knowledge as to what: really haven’t looked into it sufficiently.

[quote]toby_w wrote:
cyph31 wrote:
you think that’s a lot ? try 36 grams fish oil each day

36!!!What on earth for? have you been reading Thibs stuff, and are you 36%bf?:wink:

I meant too many different supps. I have gone as high as 18g/day, but I just get fish burps, so now 2-4 works out well for me.[/quote]

heh no i’m around 15-20% BF at a BW of around 220 lbs

and no fish oil burps as long as the quality/supplier is good :slight_smile:

and i take it because it’s the best supplement on the planet, yes more important than the almighty whey + casein

[quote]cyph31 wrote:
toby_w wrote:
cyph31 wrote:

and no fish oil burps as long as the quality/supplier is good :slight_smile:

[/quote]

I get fish burps sometimes with Flameout.

Whoa, I never got e-mails alerting me of all this e-conversaton, but searched the thread to give an update.

Thanks for the useful input.

I have been tweaking this routine, based on advice here and my own feelings/experience.

The fish oil/ZMA has remained constant. As has the beta alanine, but I am cutting that out now.

I went onto creatine mono, but I felt really bloated and my waist ballooned, after 2 days off everything went back to normal, so I’m giving that to my bro!

So after tweaking the supplements now look like this:

AM: 2g fish oil
Pre Work Out: Supermarket Brand sugar free Red Bull
Peri Workout: working up to as much bcaa as i can cover the taste of with 15g dextrose (1/2 scoop)with 600ml water
Post workout: 30g whey, 30g oats 15g dextrose (other half)
PM: ZMA, 2g fish oil 3g taurine.

After all my experimenting with stims, the red bull still does the trick!

Trying to keep it simple, although i much prefer to play with individual ingredients, rather than buy ‘all in one’ products which ‘build muscle, lose fat, extend your penis etc’

Also having MRP for snacks once a day, and home made protein bars from Berardi’s book every now and then. Would love to grab some Metabolic Drive + bars as it looks to be packed with quality ingredients, but, sadly its just too expensive in the uk. start a uk distribution centre? please?