[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
In their mosques.
Yeah, the don’t have televisions or anything… they all live in mosques 99% of every day.[/quote]
The 9/11 hijackers were recruited in mosques. They did not get the idea to do this by watching TV.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I rarely see it but a few weeks ago Ambassador Bolton was on. He was awesome. He did not let Stewart get away with his usual cheap shots.
Bolton simply countered with the usual right wing viewpoint.
Lighten up man.
This became incredibly clear the day after when Stewart brought on a historian (voice only) to back up his view that Lincoln had included dissenters within his cabinet.
Hell, being challenged to think harder in your own cabinet would certainly be a good thing.[/quote]
I remember that, was hilarious. As for cheap shots…there are none, or almost none. His show is comedy and satire, guests know this, and they should expect it. Unless you are absolutely full of shit in which case he will take you to the cleaners.
I’d prefer listening to him over any right or left wing political hack any day. Just look up his appearance on crossfire:
[quote]vroom wrote:
I think it’s important for people to realize that the Daily Show is comedy… hell, it’s on the comedy channel.
Anyhow, the reason it’s so slanted, is because the current administration sets itself up with ridiculous postures and policies.
Go figure. If they weren’t so easy to poke fun at and ridicule, then they wouldn’t have to do so.
As for Rosie, she’s an idiot, but she does have one point. As much as you hate them, terrorists remain human beings. Your hatred for them is mirrored by their hatred for you.
A group hug is obviously stupid, but it should be glaringly obvious that their hatred has been concentrated and congealed by a life-long control of the slanted news that they have heard.[/quote]
By engaging in terrorist acts, I think a person has ceded any claims of “I’m-a-person-too!”
You do not act like a civilized human being, and I don’t believe you should be treated like one.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Bolton simply countered with the usual right wing viewpoint.[/quote]
So that must mean Stewart opened up with the usual left-wing viewpoint?
This, of course, shows Stewart’s lack of knowledge of the history - Lincoln had to put together a cabinet from various factions because the fledgling Republican party had not made up its mind on how to approach the slavery issue and Lincoln’s cause was threatened by disagreement from within.
I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing, not at all, but the comparison made by Stewart is silly - Lincoln had a completely different agenda in surrounding himself with his cabinet than Bush.
I keep hearing Stewart is “just a comedian” - good, he should stick to comedy and stop swinging wildly with bad historical comparisons in the hopes of scoring points with his half-educated demographic.
[quote]vroom wrote:
As for Rosie, she’s an idiot, but she does have one point. As much as you hate them, terrorists remain human beings. Your hatred for them is mirrored by their hatred for you.[/quote]
Terrorists forfeit their humanity the moment they plot to forfeit you of yours.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The 9/11 hijackers were recruited in mosques. They did not get the idea to do this by watching TV.[/quote]
And what little interaction they get is courtesy of al-Jazeera fiction machine.
But remember - all cultures are equal!
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
vroom wrote:
Bolton simply countered with the usual right wing viewpoint.
So that must mean Stewart opened up with the usual left-wing viewpoint?
This became incredibly clear the day after when Stewart brought on a historian (voice only) to back up his view that Lincoln had included dissenters within his cabinet.
This, of course, shows Stewart’s lack of knowledge of the history - Lincoln had to put together a cabinet from various factions because the fledgling Republican party had not made up its mind on how to approach the slavery issue and Lincoln’s cause was threatened by disagreement from within.
Hell, being challenged to think harder in your own cabinet would certainly be a good thing.
I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing, not at all, but the comparison made by Stewart is silly - Lincoln had a completely different agenda in surrounding himself with his cabinet than Bush.
I keep hearing Stewart is “just a comedian” - good, he should stick to comedy and stop swinging wildly with bad historical comparisons in the hopes of scoring points with his half-educated demographic.[/quote]
John Bolton on the Daily Show:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007/03/john_bolton.html
Stewart proving that Bolton was wrong:
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2007/03/history_lesson_1.html
There we go fellas, the Bolton vs Stewart issue in video.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The 9/11 hijackers were recruited in mosques. They did not get the idea to do this by watching TV.
[/quote]
Dude, I don’t think you are paying any attention at all.
They are recruitable because they have been filled with hatred. Then, because they are so willing to believe what they are told, they lap it up and justify the idea of enacting their atrocities easily.
It’s easy to justify something once your hate something or strongly agree with something.
It’s a process similar to all the cheerleading we see around here… you know, those people that can see no wrong in certain government officials, no matter what their actions?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
This, of course, shows Stewart’s lack of knowledge of the history - Lincoln had to put together a cabinet from various factions because the fledgling Republican party had not made up its mind on how to approach the slavery issue and Lincoln’s cause was threatened by disagreement from within.
[/quote]
Would you make up your mind.
You say Stewart was wrong but then you agree that Lincoln did surround himself with people with varying viewpoints.
Which one is it?
Are you having trouble admitting that he did so because you are worried about that being applied to Bush in some way? Step out from the politics and consider the issue on it’s own for a change.
You yourself said he did… so I’ll assume that’s your answer.
Now, as to the reasons, that is a different subject. I think we can both go look for historic documents, source documents, if want to form opinions on that.
[quote]Ren wrote:
His show is comedy and satire, guests know this…[/quote]
Unless you’re Illinois Governer Rod Blagojevich:
In early-February 2006, Blagojevich appeared on The Daily Show to discuss his executive order that pharmacists must dispense any drugs for which a customer had a valid prescription, including birth control pills and Plan B. This controversial measure was being challenged on the show by state legislator Ron Stephens from Highland in the 102nd District. Blagojevich was interviewed by Jason Jones who repeatedly pretended to be unable to pronounce Blagojevich and simply called him “Governor Smith”. This prompted Blagojevich to turn to the camera and ask “Is he teasing me or is that legit?” Two weeks after the interview, Blagojevich admitted that he was unaware of the nature of the show.
IMO, you can’t beat Illinois politics for entertainment value… but, yeah, Obama in '08, seriously.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Terrorists forfeit their humanity the moment they plot to forfeit you of yours.[/quote]
That’s a catchy little buzzphrase, but it is meaningless.
By saying they are human, I am suggesting that they have faults, weaknesses and frailties like anyone else. They have a twisted brain in their head, and how it was twisted is going to be similar to any other human.
If you could stop demonizing them long enough to realize that they also have feelings and emotions, which have been manipulated or taken advantage of, then you’d be a lot further along in figuring out how to slow their recruitment.
Saying they are human is not some type of left wing statement meant to engender emotion, it is a statement meant to bring the conversation to a useful level in terms of figuring out how to change the future… so that it isn’t like today.
Unless of course you happen to like the current state of affairs with the Middle East filled to the brim with easy to recruit pissed off people?
Spend less time hating and more time thinking…
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The 9/11 hijackers were recruited in mosques. They did not get the idea to do this by watching TV.
[/quote]
Dude, they were recruited by Al Jazeera as well as what ever BS lie they were told by some right wing Islamist.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Would you make up your mind.
You say Stewart was wrong but then you agree that Lincoln did surround himself with people with varying viewpoints.[/quote]
Yes, Lincoln did - for different reasons. The comparison is not a good one.
You don’t think the reasons matter? Then FDR and Bush are the same - they both sent the country to war.
No, and I beg you - stop lecturing folks around here about “letting go of politics”. Most people around here have forgotten more than you will learn, so stop the sanctimonious hectoring about freeing ourselves from our “narrow political mindset.” It has become almost a comic routine when I see you have written that.
The comparison isn’t apt - and don’t forget, Vroom, I actually said I thought having various viewpoints was a good thing.
My point was Lincoln didn’t have differing viewpoints just for the sake of having differing viewpoints - which is the point Stewart so desperately wants to make so he can contrast Bush with the sainted Lincoln. Make sense?
Lincoln’s motive is exactly what Stewart wants to highlight - that Lincoln was tolerant and not as stubborn as Bush. But the situations are not congruent.
Actually, it’s not - when all the cheering settles down from Stewart’s point making Bush look like no Lincoln, Lincoln’s unique situation makes the comparison a bad one.
The problem, of course, is that the “cheerleaders” are too busy getting into a lather to understand the differences were a big deal.
It’s cheap pandering to an audience, mischaracterizing history. For the record, I think Bush is no Lincoln (though presumably you do in the both-as-tyrants way, given your neo-Confederate approach of threads past), although there really are striking similarities to the Democrats of the Civil War era and the modern ones.
[quote]vroom wrote:
That’s a catchy little buzzphrase, but it is meaningless.[/quote]
It isn’t a buzzphrase - it means literally what it says.
Remarkably tolerant of you, and not particularly original.
My God, Vroom - you are just oozing estrogen all over the page.
Your theory of recruitment - that we enable it with our intolerant actions - is completely refuted by the history of the Islamists themselves. They are slaughtering people who have done nothing to them all over the world. In Africa, Black Christians and animists get butchered by these poor “victims” who have “feelings and emotions” (big sniff) by reason of nothing else than they feel like engaging in genocide against non-Muslims.
Look at a balance sheet - who has an easier time, a Jew in Muslim country, or a Muslim in a Western country? This is an aggressive pathology, one based in original action and ideology, not reaction - despite your empathy and “conspicuous compassion.”
Recruits aren’t going to turn away from their ideological recruiters until they believe that war in the name of a barbarian ideology is a bad choice - and I can think of only one way to convince them.
This is the height of naivete. Hmmm - Westernizing them is imperializing them, leaving them alone is either allowing the cancer to grow or ignoring our duty to the poor and ignorant: damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
They speak the language of force. I realize that spooks your tender, loving sensibilities, but the world you want doesn’t exist. If you stand there with your arms open for embrace, saying “I care”, you will get a shiv.
No, I like it just fine - they are learning that war on the rest of the world brings an even harsher war to their doorstep. They are learning not to be so cavalier about the romance of war, now that they are tasting the bitterness of what they asked for. They are learning that war is a dead-end.
After they are fully apprised of that harsh reality, then we can talk. Until then, you are kidding yourself.
Seriously, this is every post for you. It’s ridiculous. Do you honestly - honestly - live under the illusion that you are the “big, wise, detached thinker” around here, and the rest of us muddle along in uninformed superstition?
Give us one big collective break - right, left, middle - all of us.
[quote]vroom wrote:
If you could stop demonizing them long enough to realize that they also have feelings and emotions, which have been manipulated or taken advantage of, then you’d be a lot further along in figuring out how to slow their recruitment.
[/quote]
Let’s just stop demonizing those poor victimized terrorists! They don’t mean to do those things! Its all George Bush’s fault — he and his Army of Darkness are driving them to it and creating more terrorists!!
ROFLMAO!!
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
No, and I beg you - stop lecturing folks around here about “letting go of politics”. Most people around here have forgotten more than you will learn, so stop the sanctimonious hectoring about freeing ourselves from our “narrow political mindset.” It has become almost a comic routine when I see you have written that.[/quote]
Zzzzz.
Dude, you can’t even read or make a post without political slant. You develop perspective and/or demonstrate the ability to do so and I’ll stop commenting on it. Yuck it up if you must.
It is possible to discuss issues without getting into the left vs right viewpoint, and some retarded “folks” around these parts simply don’t…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Let’s just stop demonizing those poor victimized terrorists! They don’t mean to do those things! Its all George Bush’s fault — he and his Army of Darkness are driving them to it and creating more terrorists!!
ROFLMAO!![/quote]
Are you truly too stupid to understand that tomorrows terrorists are not yet terrorists as of today?
You can’t possibly believe I’m trying to engender sympathy for terrorists? Even you can’t be that fucking stupid? Can you?
Sigh. Never mind. I know the answer to that question.
My point, oh simpleton, is that to find a long term solution, we need to stop the creation of terrorists. This means finding a way to interrupt the propaganda stream… and interrupt the flow of hatred which makes it so easy for them to be recruited.
However, if, like you, people are so full of hatred and fear, that they can’t even manage to think about such issues, then the US is just doomed to continue throwing soldiers at the Middle East.
Good plan… you should fax Bush your great new idea!!!
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
My God, Vroom - you are just oozing estrogen all over the page.
Your theory of recruitment - that we enable it with our intolerant actions - is completely refuted by the history of the Islamists themselves. They are slaughtering people who have done nothing to them all over the world. In Africa, Black Christians and animists get butchered by these poor “victims” who have “feelings and emotions” (big sniff) by reason of nothing else than they feel like engaging in genocide against non-Muslims.[/quote]
Unfortunately, for somebody who claims to know so much more than me, you are completely misreading what I have stated, perhaps due to that little slanted viewpoint that you have.
My view of recruitment has nothing to do with “intolerant actions”. Bzzzt. Sorry. Please play again.
Try listening for a change. Or, if you wish to be a pedant, try reading.
Propaganda is being used, rampantly, in the Middle East, to spread hatred. And, just like anywhere else, when a people (to them, the US, the west and it’s citizens) are demonized, then it is easier to “justify” actions such as terrorism, especially when aided by a certain fundamentalistic viewpoint.
What I am saying, is that propaganda, brainwashing and the imperatives of religion are universal. This doesn’t mean that you can sing fucking Kumba-Ya with the outcome of the process, but it does mean that it’s a process, and that it needs to be interrupted.
Now, if you can remove your fucking political lenses for a moment, you’ll notice I’m not decrying your precious leader or anyone else in writing this post.
So, you don’t have to get all defensive or invent some imaginary Kumba-Ya scenario for my post because of your fantasy that I’m echoing some “liberal viewpoint” you’ve heard espoused by a media talking head.
Moron.
Go ahead and declare yourself a genius again… and hide it behind the term “folks” if you wish. I know I was fooled.
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
By engaging in terrorist acts, I think a person has ceded any claims of “I’m-a-person-too!”
You do not act like a civilized human being, and I don’t believe you should be treated like one.
[/quote]
[/para] Nietzsche:
Careful about looking into the bad shit 'cos…right back atcha babe…
Irrespective of whether you agree disagree with the liberal/ conservative P.O.V. or whatever, be careful that you
don’t take on the same perspective you accuse the terrorists of.
While their actions are abhorent (irrespective of justified/ unjustified motivations etc) as soon as you start denying them the right to be recognised as human beings the only person, and the only humanity, you demean is yourself and your own.