I have read in a post that you adviced some guy to do not so much strengthtraining. You adviced him to follow a EDT routine off front squats and pull-ups for 15 minutes on one day and another day do deadlift and overhead presses.
It was a realy good post from you were you talk about the importancy off conditioning etc.
I am a 50 years ols male martial artist and I practice all kinds off martial arts since the age off 15.
Since INternet I got confused about all the supplementary stuff and off course I have tried most things, even training like Mike Mentzer, low weight/high reps, Mat Furey etc. etc.
Sometimes I was so busy with all these workouts that I didnt had any energy left to train my martial arts.
Right know I try to train everything that I think is usefull in a streetfight (call it Jeet Kune Do).
I am in a prety good shape but I want to get a little bit stronger (toned) and have more endurance.
Do you think that such a EDT routine will work for me? And how about reps, do you have to do 5 reps for example everytime or 3?
Sorry for my bad Englisch, I am from Holland.
I just want to spend everyday some time on training. Sometimes I have a hour, sometimes half hour (Busy with work family etc.)
Will/can you help me putting together a good routine to train my strength and endurance without stealing to much time from my martial arts training?
I am about 1,87 long and my weight is about 90 kilo.
Most off the time I train at home so I dont have any pulley stuff orso. just a bench, barbell. dumbells and I can do dips and pull-ups. And have two kettlebell (20 and 24 kilo).
I hope this translates well for you, let me know if I can explain anything better.
My training philosophies have evolved a bit since I posted about EDT. So I think it’s important I give you a nice overview of my current perspective. Then you can decide if you still would like my help.
As far as strength training: EDT is a great routine. Fantastic as a matter of fact. I made great gains with it and it’s very adaptable for the combat athlete. IIRC CT (Thibaudeau) recently wrote in one of his labspills that the concept has been around for a while. Olympic lifting coaches would use something similar with an allotted time for singles, triples, and 6 for hypertrophy. So to answer your question no you don’t have to use 5 as your rep goal. You can adjust the loading depending on what your goals are for that lift. So yes, you can adjust it to 3 reps but you should be able to get ~5 reps with the same weight. This is Charles Staley’s system of course so reading his website should be able to give you a better detailed answer than I ever could… But imo yes you can adjust the reps to fit your goal. I loved doing EDT for sets of 3. I never got myogenic tone like that from any other program (ie, my muscles were really hard to the touch).
His Articles (From His Site)
Great set of videos (look for his name around page 4)
Regarding endurance training…
IMO, training in the weight room (for combat athletes) should be emphasize developing POWER. I am of the opinion that the best way to train your energy systems for any event is by performing that event. In other words the best way to get better endurance for fighting is by fighting. So I encourage you to use your time in the weight room to develop very specific attributes. Be it hypertrophy (muscle mass), Speed (plyometrics), Power (olympic lifts, weighted throws), or Strength (singles, doubles).
For Martial Artist our needs in the weight room may not be as high as those in other sports.
Coach Ripptoe stated in “Practical Programming For Strength Training” (pg 169-170 for those of you following along)…
GSP (George St. Pierre) the welterweight (170lbs/77kg) champion of the UFC had stated in an interview the same concept. He felt that a lot of his conditioning work and weight room work was ineffective. He noted that a muay thai fighter he often trained with (former world champion) was just so efficient with his technique that despite smoking and drinking he was still able to spar for dozens of rounds with little effect to his conditioning.
If you’re around Muay Thai circles then you know of all sorts of odd stories like that… most thai fighters being trained since they were children have god-like efficiency with their technique. Their fighting techniques are ingrained the same way tying our shoes or sneezing are to us. Saekson Janjira (and I’ve heard similar stories (easily verifiable) about other Nakmuay/thai-fighters) would take a fight on a few minutes notice, down his beer and finish his hotdog, hop into the ring and knock the guy out. No fancy supplements, prepping, peaking, loading, perfect phase for this or that… simple efficiency. (Please note: I do not encourage a hot dog and beer training program).
To paraphrase: Unless you are a power lifter or an Olympic lifter… the weight room is GPP
Seriously I could reference folks all day regarding this concept. So all of the above is really to say this:
For your endurance concerns I think that the days you aren’t in the weight room you should spend more time actually practicing your chosen method of combat (Jeet Kune Do for yourself). The weight room is for training very specific athletic attributes and your energy system work is not one of them. If you have a good routine of pad work and bagwork that you currently perform when you are training technique then that is where you should dedicate your energy towards improving. Save your energy and put more gusto into that time. There are exceptions and things you can do outside of just fight-practice but generally most people just need more time in the ring/cage/ on the mat.
Before I can really help you with a really specific program though I’d need to know:
[b]
What is your current training program?
What is your “training age”? (how long have you been lifting, etc)
Have you ever had any coaching as far as lifting? (someone teach you to squat, bench, etc)
What are your specific goals? (meaning, set a time frame, in “8 weeks I plan to…”, “in 3 months…”)
Are you training JKD with a coach? (And if so, who? I might know him/her)
You stated you have an hour/day to train… usually around what time is this hour? (Morning, evening?)
Do you have an hour a day for just strength/endurance work? Or is this hour including the time you get to practice techniques as well?
[/b]
Off the top of my head though from what you’ve already told me, I’d probably tell you that I like this:
EDT
Wendler’s 531
Ripptoe’s basic A-B
EDT you know about, Ripptoe you can google.
I like Wendler’s proposed 5-3-1 program just twice a week. If you aren’t familiar with the program it’s pretty simple but beyond the scope of this post so I’ll fill you in with more detail later. But basic gist of it is you have one upper and one lower body day per week.
and you keep this going through a 6 week cycle. Because it’s spaced out so much you don’t really need to deload and you can just keep pushing your poundage. GREAT plan for people who can be consistent.Either way and any program you decide on, if you’re training a lot of technique I’d probably say lift just 2-3x a week. 3 tops.
So a schedule something like this:
Monday: Bag & padwork till your form starts to falter, then Tabata Jumprope for 4-5 minutes, multiple rounds if you can.
Tuesday: Lift (EDT, 531, etc)
Wednesday: Shadowboxing. Yep an hour of it.
Thursday: Lift (EDT, 531, etc)
Friday: Bag and padwork till your form starts to falter again, then a light bodyweight conditioning circuit
Saturday: Run, alternate sprints one week and a long aerobic run the next week
Sunday: Rest, if you get stir crazy and still want to train I’d swim.
sidebar: Come to think of it, I think I’m calling it the “Strength Room” not the “Weight Room” from now on.
thank you very much for taking the time to react. I realy appricated that.
Okay, I will give you a short version off my background.
As I said, since the age off 15 I have practice all kinds off martial arts (I am 50 now).
This is were it all started
For a year off 10 we were with a group off fanatic friends and started to train Shotokan karate, then we go to a pencjac silat school, then to a pukulan school. We go there once or twice a week, duriing one or two years. Then we tried some other styles.
On topp off that we trained together during the week, sparring, running etc. 5-6 days a week.
Then most off my friends stopped witht the training because they were to busy with other things.
I was the only one who still goes to other schools to learn. So I have done 2 years off boxing, kick-boxing, kung-fu, kyokushikay karate and at last I trained with a teacher here in Hollend who was practicing a sort off pencjac silat but with high kicks, low kicks etc. So not only the soft part but the hard part to.
After a few years I have got to be a assistent off him.
But it wasnt what I was looking for. true all these years I have seen so much things that didnt have any thing to do with real self defense that I begon reading all I could off Jeet Kune Do.
Now I have my own little group off students that I teach every monday evening. I dont train a style. I just try to learn them things that I think will work in a streetfight.
Before that I dindt have payed much attention about supplementary training. Off course I had a Bullworker, expanders etc. But most off the time we trained push-ups, sit-ups, running and that was enough.
True Internet I know that I have to put more atentention to the supplementary training.
So Since a year off 8-10 I have tried a lott off things. I have done traditional bodybuilding routines (I have tried routines off Frank Zane, Franco Columbo, Arnold Zwarzenegger etc.) I have tried the Matt Furey bodyweight stuff for a few months, I have tried heavy weights/low reps, low weights/high reps etc. etc.
Everytime when I saw a routine on a martial arts forum I had to try it.
But most off the time I ended up training more these routines then my martial arts.
Sometimes because I was to tired to train my martial arts after such a routine and sometimes because they say that you ave to take lotts off rest when you did that routine.
So at last I have bought some kettlebells (20 and 24 kilo) and started with Enter the Kettlebell from Pavel).
But you have to do lot off swings etc. and after a few weeks you get bored by that.
Oh, almost forgot, off course I have tried the routine from Bruce Lee to from his book Expressing the human body. But then I read that this routine was a complete waist off time so I stopped.
I have tried EDT a few years ago to and I must say that I liked that very much, but then again I was so stupid to stop because I had seen another great routine (I thought).
So now I am on a point that I want to give it all my effort and because I have read most off you posts you seem to have a lott off knowledge, so I hope you will help me.
So to answer your questions:
My current programm was monday a HIT workout (Mentzer) but I have to stopp that because I dont think its a good programm for martial artist. Because you have to go beyond failluere and I train at home so I cant do that. When I do bench-press for example I ave to stopp 1 or 2 reps before I can give up because otherwise I get stuck under the weight. And with the deadlift for example you come to a certain point that you have to lift a lott off weight and I dont think that my body can handle that. Maybay its because I have focused for so many years on martial arts only but I dont think it will make me a better fighter.
Tuesday I did some running or the Bas Rutten All round fighter workout.
Wednesday I did most off the time my martial arts (including bag work etc.)
Thursday HIT workout (Mentzer with other exercises).
Friday same as wednesday and saterday sometimes a run.
Because I stopped with the Mentzer routine I did the kettlebll routine sometimes.
My training age for lifting is about ten years as I have written above.
I dont have any coaching but I think I can do the normal exercises good enough true all the things I have read about it and off course lott off these exercises I have done.
My goals are to getting stronger, more toned (so I dont want to be a bodybuilder, just a good musculair and toned body witch is/look athletic). I dont have or want a time frame. I just want to be in as good shape as I can true the years(s)
Yes I train JKD. I dont have a coach because off the distance off the schools but the guy who I talk with if I have any questions about JKD is Richard Torres (assistent off Ted Wong) true mail.
I have had a routine from him to but that wasnt a routine that I liked. It was 6 exercises and all be done for 4 sets off 12-15 reps. I dont think such a routine work for me because I think its a waist off time to do so man sets and reps.
Most off the times I train in the evening.
Sometimes I have a hour a day, sometimes more, sometimes less.
I have a own companay so the hours that I work are not set. Sometimes I work to 20.00 hour, sometimes till 17.00 hour.
Now I have some questions for you, hope you dont mind.
I think I will go for the EDT version to train my strength, mostly beacause you adviced it but as I said, I have tried it before and I liked it very much. If I can remember right I did two blocks off 15 minutes with two different exercises, the first block was, I think the pul-ups and the front squat and the second block I have forgotten.
When I use the EDT version what kind off exrcises do you think are great for that?
And do you think one block off 15 minutes is enough?
I know that in the answer you have given to another member to do only one block off 15 minutes with the two exercises. Do you think thats enough?
Because you say in the weekly example to do EDT (or any other programm) on Tuesday and Thursday, so that means that you have to train only 15 minutes that day? Or do you think two blocks would be better?
And if so can you please write the exercise down for me?
As I said before, I train at home so I have a bench, barbell, dumbells and I can do pull-ups and dips (and I have two kettlebells).
So I dont have any pulleystuff so I cant do leg curls or lat-pull-downs orso.
I like the weekly routine very much I think that when you say to do bag and pad work you mean to do different rounds off 3 minutes on the heavy bag?
And when you say one hour shadow boxing you mean shadow kick-boxing for the whole hour or in rounds to?
Last question, sorry for the long mail, when you say to do a light bodyweight conditioning circuit on friday do you have a example off such a routine?
Sorry for all these questions but now I have the change to ask anything that I want so hope you wil answer them.
Take care and thanks for the time you putt in this for helping me.
Well thank you (sincerely) for finding value in my opinion.
Truthfully, I’m no coach, just another guy on his own journey through martial arts.
But I’ll do my best to help point you in a direction that can help…
[quote]lokate wrote:
I think I will go for the EDT version to train my strength, mostly beacause you adviced it but as I said, I have tried it before and I liked it very much. If I can remember right I did two blocks off 15 minutes with two different exercises, the first block was, I think the pul-ups and the front squat and the second block I have forgotten.
[/quote]
It doesn’t sound like you’re looking for much of a change in body composition. So for primarily strength training, the 15minute block would suffice but the training effect is really low. I’d really only recommend that if you don’t have ANY other time.
Since you’re also looking to train some martial arts during your allotted hour then the 15min block would be fine for you. While I could argue it’s not optimal, the primary thing you should be training for now is so that you ENJOY it. So as long as you’re having fun busting out a tough 15m. Then enjoy!
Big exercises. I think that was a very specific EDT article I was referencing (I don’t really recall) but if I remember correctly it called for all big exercises and the 2nd block (if you chose to do so) was smaller exercises but they were still multi-joint. So for instance barbell presses would be block one, block 2 might be dumbbell presses (just an example, not to be copied verbatim).
I like pairing “opposites” or things that help me (personally, they may not work for you) prime other lifts (ie, make me more explosive in other lifts).
1 Arm Snatches & Back Squats
Chin Ups & Front Squats
Dips & Deadlifts
Power Snatch & Jump Squats
…etc
The beauty is as long as they were big exercises it opened up a lot of room for creativity. Again, and let me emphasize this, I am NOT Staley, and this is NOT my system, he invented it, so I recommend you do some research and find out really what he recommends.
[quote]
I like the weekly routine very much I think that when you say to do bag and pad work you mean to do different rounds off 3 minutes on the heavy bag?[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote]
And when you say one hour shadow boxing you mean shadow kick-boxing for the whole hour or in rounds to?[/quote]
Vary it however you want, remember the important thing: have fun. But try shadowboxing/kickboxing/fighting for a whole hour.
[quote]
Last question, when you say to do a light bodyweight conditioning circuit on friday do you have a example off such a routine?[/quote]
It’s hard to give a specific example. What I mean by a “light” conditioning circuit, is something to just get the blood flowing, your heart rate up, but doesn’t hurt your recovery too much. So do NOT go to failure, stay 2-3 reps away from failure but go back to back (no rest) between exercises for 3 rounds (so go through the entire list 3 times). If you push your pace you can get your heart rate going pretty high but (at least imo) without impeding your other progress too much.
so for example:
Pullups
Situps
Squats
Dips
Flutter Kicks
Lunges
Pushups
Rest 1 min, repeat 2 more times (3 times total)
and when that becomes easy (you should be able to top it out in 3-4 weeks) you can progress to something a little harder.
I’d really like to encourage you to not skip routines so much. I’m not sure how fast you’re changing up routines, but imo you really need to stick with a system for a while before you learn just what your body needs to know about it so you can utilize the principles in the future. But really training is supposed to be FUN, so if you enjoy yourself I can’t knock it, but I think you’ll find better results sticking with something for a while.
If you’re looking for more “fighter oriented” workouts that are pretty varied and you should be able to do with your available equipment… I recommend you check out
Check it out, look over his site, it should be what you’re looking for.
It contains a 50 day routine. If you go this route (even in the future) I recommend you complete the ENTIRE 50 days. Don’t even look at any other training stuff till you finish that one. If that means not going online or not reading any training stuff then so be it.
I hope I’ve been of some help. Again, if I’m unclear or otherwise inept let me know.
thanks again for helping me out. Maybay I wasnt so clear the first time but I want to put more effort in my training.
So I now I have to make time for it, no question about that.
So if you say that the EDT version with only one block off 15 minutes is not optimal can you suggest me how much blocks and what exercises I can do then?
I have mentioned to do front squats and pull-ups in one 15 minute block. That means you do for example 3 reps off the front squats and then 3 reps off pull-ups then 3 reps off front squats etc. untill the 15 minutes are done.
Then you can rest for a few minutes and start a second block with other exercises.
Have you a example off these exercises (witch I can do with my equipment?
Since you said that you had great results with EDT I think you can tell me what is the best couple off exercises, how many blocks etc.
I said that I want to get stronger and more musculair but not a bodybuilder so I know I have to put some time in it, so again, if more blocks off 15 minutes works better then I will do that.
I know you are right when you say to do a routine for a longer time to see results.
Off course I have done that with the other routines that I have tried to but as I said, sometimes they were so demanding that I have to use the rest days so I coulndt train my martial arts.
When you can explain me for the last time, I hope how the ideal EDT routine for building strength and power have to look like then I will try that routine and then see how it works for me. I know to that only 15 minutes is way to short so I hope you can help me with putting a solid routine for that.
I know Ross book INfity Intensity and I think its a very good book. But I dont know that when you follow that 50 days plan if you have time to train martial arts next to it.
I have seen some great routines such as for example the Magic 50, looks very easy on paper but are very hard to do.
Very last question, you mentiond 5/3/1 to and I think for building up strength it would be a great routine.
But I dont know how it works.
You say for example to do week 1 on monday the overhead presses with assistent lift.
Do you have to then 5 reps, rest, putting some more weight on the barbell and then do 3 reps and then finally do 1 rep with as much weight as you an for one rep?
And do you have to do the same assistent lifts for every workout? And if so how many assistence lifts do you have to do and what sets/reps?
Or do you have to do different assistent lifts every time you do the 5/3/1/ routine?
Sorry for all these questions, I realy appriciated it that you are willing to help me.
I think its my lack off Englisch that I ask so much. I am not that young anymore so its difficult to write the things down what I want to say.
So for the record, I want to train hard and I want to put more time in my training to get some good results.
I am only thinking what would be better for me, the 5/3/1, witch I think is a good routine but then I have to have more information. (and off course I have read some stuff on INternet but sometimes its so technical (for me) that I dont know how to do it_. Thats why I ask you to help me.
Or to do the EDT version witch is maybay better because I dont have a spotter and when I have to do for example the bech press for a max 1 rep I dont know if that is possible without a spotter.
So I hope that for the last time you can help me out. I realy want yuor honest opinion about what you think can be the best routine for me.
The I can make a start and work from there.
The rest off the week plan looks great by the way, so the only problem are the strength days
Again, thank you very, veru much for your help and take care.
thanks again for helping me out. Maybay I wasnt so clear the first time but I want to put more effort in my training.
So I now I have to make time for it, no question about that.
So if you say that the EDT version with only one block off 15 minutes is not optimal can you suggest me how much blocks and what exercises I can do then?
I have mentioned to do front squats and pull-ups in one 15 minute block. That means you do for example 3 reps off the front squats and then 3 reps off pull-ups then 3 reps off front squats etc. untill the 15 minutes are done?
Then you can rest for a few minutes and start a second block with other exercises.
Have you a example off these exercises (witch I can do with my equipment?
Since you said that you had great results with EDT I think you can tell me what is the best couple off exercises, how many blocks etc.
I said that I want to get stronger and more musculair but not a bodybuilder so I know I have to put some time in it, so again, if more blocks off 15 minutes works better then I will do that.
I know you are right when you say to do a routine for a longer time to see results.
Off course I have done that with the other routines that I have tried to but as I said, sometimes they were so demanding that I have to use the rest days so I couldnâ??t train my martial arts.
When you can explain me for the last time, I hope how the ideal EDT routine for building strength and power have to look like then I will try that routine and then see how it works for me. I know to that only 15 minutes is way to short so I hope you can help me with putting a solid routine for that.
I know Ross book INfity Intensity and I think its a very good book. But I dont know that when you follow that 50 days plan if you have time to train martial arts next to it.
I have seen some great routines such as for example the Magic 50, looks very easy on paper but are very hard to do.
Very last question, you mentiond 5/3/1 to and I think for building up strength it would be a great routine.
But I dont know how it works.
You say for example to do week 1 on monday the overhead presses with assistent lifts.
Do you have to then 5 reps, rest, putting some more weight on the barbell and then do 3 reps and then finally do 1 rep with as much weight as you an for one rep?
And do you have to do the same assistent lifts for every workout? And if so how many assistence lifts do you have to do and what sets/reps?
Or do you have to do different assistent lifts every time you do the 5/3/1/ routine?
Sorry for all these questions, and I realy appriciated it that you are willing to help me.
I think its my lack off Englisch that I ask so much. I am not that young anymore so its difficult to write the things down what you want to say.
So for the record, I want to train hard and I want to put more time in my training to get some good results.
I am only thinking what would be better for me, the 5/3/1, witch I think is a good routine but then I have to have more information. (and off course I have read some stuff on INternet but sometimes its so technical (for me) that I dont know how to do it_. Thats why I ask you to help me.
Or to do the EDT version witch is maybay better because I dont have a spotter and when I have to do for example the bench press for a max 1 rep I dont know if that is possible without a spotter, what do you think?
So I hope that for the last time you can help me out. I realy want your honest opinion about what you think can be the best routine for me.
Then I can make a start and work from there.
The rest off the weekplan seems okay, the only problem for now is filling in the strength days with a good routine.
Again, thank you very, very much for your help and take care.
