T Nation

To the Conservatives

Do any of you feel like the Left in this country? I mean do you ever feel like you’ve been sold out by the party that is supposedly supporting your views? Here is an article about a new book written by James Bovard. He has many of his books featured in the Conservative Book Club.

http://www.lp.org/lpnews/0411/review.html

Zep,

“Do any of you feel like the Left in this country? I mean do you ever feel like you’ve been sold out by the party that is supposedly supporting your views?”

Not fundamentally, but I do think it is time to start curbing the many excesses that the GOP has gotten fat and lazy on.

As for your author - he is a libertarian, not a conservative. He is not offering a conservative critique of Bush.

Just my opinion, but-

I think that Bush has co-opted many of the left’s core issues in an attempt to silence them. Once the republicans have gained more seats in congress - you’ll probably see a quicker swing back to the core conservative beliefs - such as privatized Soc Sec, lower taxes, and less spending.

Zep,

I read your link.

Actually, not one of my civil liberties has been infringed upon.

I don’t consider being able to get on an airplane in under 20 minutes a civil liberty.

Thanks for asking.

By the way, come on over and accept THE CHALLENGE.

JeffR

thunderbolt23: I know Bovard is a libertarian but many of the libs positions are in lock-step with conservatives. If they weren’t, then his books wouldn’t be featured in the Consevative Book Club.

And what are the excesses you speak of?

JeffR: If you don’t think your civil liberties have been curtailed then you truly are politically blind and don’t understand what civil liberties are.

Just a FEW examples:

The carnivore e-mail snooping w/o a court warrent.

Easier for the government to tap multiple phones as part of a roving wiretap.

Expansion of the definition of “terrorist” so broadly that it could include non-violent protestors at an anti-war rally.

The FBI can now acsess your private medical records and search your library records w/o a warrent or even probable cause. Your doc. and librarian are forbidden from notifying you when these searches take place.

They can search your home while you’re away and in some cases confiscate your belongings.

Again those are just a few examples.

As for your “challenge”, I’ve looked it over and found it childish. Besides who says I’m voting for Kerry?

Democrat or Republican makes no difference, it’s hard to feel sold out when the corporations run the country.

pocoloco: Excellent point! I think one of the biggest obstacles in American politics is the Electoral College. It truly stands in the way of electoral reform at the national level. It should be abolished.

Zepplin,

You are voting for Kerry. Forget the “I’m an independent” thing. No one buys the assertion that you are open-minded or that Kerry is “attracting” the independent vote.

First of all, Zepplin, September 11th should have demonstrated challenge to our law enforcement/military/intelligence.

How do you root out the bad guys without undully harassing the good guys?

I’d be interested to know if you have any instances of gross abuse of the current system.

I agree, the potential is there. However, you must also agree that increased survelliance could also lead to stopping Sept 11th plots cold.

What is an acceptable risk/benefit ratio?

More importantly do you have a viable alternative plan? I tire of dinks who rip on W. and his administration without presenting a viable alternative plan.

Again, not one of my civil liberties have been infringed upon. I would hazard a guess that the VAST MAJORITY of law abiding citizens can claim the same.

For me, the risks of terrorism far outweigh the potential risks.

Finally, as a Kerry supporter, you can join the growing list of people who have accepted THE CHALLENGE. They have shown the stones to stand up for their candidate. Can you?

JeffR

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
JeffR: If you don’t think your civil liberties have been curtailed then you truly are politically blind and don’t understand what civil liberties are.

Just a FEW examples:

The carnivore e-mail snooping w/o a court warrent.

Easier for the government to tap multiple phones as part of a roving wiretap.

Expansion of the definition of “terrorist” so broadly that it could include non-violent protestors at an anti-war rally.

The FBI can now acsess your private medical records and search your library records w/o a warrent or even probable cause. Your doc. and librarian are forbidden from notifying you when these searches take place.

They can search your home while you’re away and in some cases confiscate your belongings.

Again those are just a few examples.

As for your “challenge”, I’ve looked it over and found it childish. Besides who says I’m voting for Kerry?

[/quote]

Zep,

you need to do a bit more reading about the issue, come back and play when you know what you are talking about. all of the things you mention have been widely used law enforcement tools against organized crime and drug dealers for the past 10-20 years…and all of them still need a court issued warrant. You can claim to high heavens that your civil liberties have been eroded, but its simly not the case, and its a shame that the left has to try and win points by scaring people on this issue based on nothing more than inuendo and lies.

jeffR,

You have got to be one of the most arrogant people on this forum. Your insinuation that I’m feigning my preference of political candidate and not being open-minded is baseless. I know that must be difficult for someone like yourself to understand, but not all of us are snow-blinded by jingoism.

Just for the hell of it, here is my presidental voting record thus far; Perot, Dole and Browne(libertarian)x2.
Surprised?

We don’t need more laws curtailing our freedoms. Law enforcement can do their job with the current ones in place. Why wasn’t anything done about the terrorists caught in the Philipines back in 95’? What about all the info. handed over to the FBI in relation to Saudis who were taking flying lessons? Some of those killers asked just to be taught how to steer, not take off or land.

In 1978 FISA was passed. In 96’ ATEDPA passed. In 98’ roving wiretaps were authorized and reward money for Counterterrorism went up tremedously from 2 mil to 5. Clinton issued Pres. Decision Directive (PDD)-62&63. All of these did nothing to stop the WTC tragedy. Why would more laws help? They haven’t done much of anything thus far.

Just because you or I don’t personally know of anyone who has been harassed by law enforcement under these new and expanding laws doesn’t mean the publics civil liberties haven’t been taken away. Your assertion otherwise is invalid.

Again, I looked at your challenge and thought it was childish. Besides, who says I’m voting for Kerry?

biltritewave,

Ahhhh...nope, all of those don't need a court order....sorry! Go ahead and check for yourself.

Yes versions of SOME of these laws were in place prior to the patriot Act. However, they have been expanded and new laws have been created. Check out Sec.802 of the Pat. Act. You can be criminalized for legitimate expressions of political views. Section 411 helps back that up and also limits access to ideas. I realize these are only a few but there are plenty of more “goodies” brought to you by our elitist politicians.

So why don’t you do some reading of the Patriot Act and then come back when you have a clue. Until then…peace out!

Zepp:

Tell us which candidate will be getting your vote on Novemeber 2nd?

“Why wasn’t anything done about the terrorists caught in the Philipines back in 95’? What about all the info. handed over to the FBI in relation to Saudis who were taking flying lessons? Some of those killers asked just to be taught how to steer, not take off or land.”

Dude get with the program, obviously bush had operatives in the fbi who withheld the information on purpose to make sure the terror plot was as success so that 9/11 would give bush the popular support he needed to take over afghanistand and build an oil pipeline and Iraq to get all thier oil. This would also make haliburton trillions so cheny made sure they got those flight lessons as well.

so you one one hand complain about shoddy intelligence services misisng a huge thing like that and then you complain about stepped up efforts to help these services do a better job? Where are you trying to go with this?

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayjains

JeffR-

You posted-How do you root out the bad guys without undully harassing the good guys?

You remind me of the type of person who would be unjustly ratting out your neighbors in a police state just to kiss up to the powers that be!

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
JeffR-

You posted-How do you root out the bad guys without undully harassing the good guys?

You remind me of the type of person who would be unjustly ratting out your neighbors in a police state just to kiss up to the powers that be![/quote]

Doesn’t he though!

Yeah,

Old Saddam woulda loved him, Jeffy would have risen to high levels in that regime!

Zeb: I’m still deciding between the Libertarian and Green Party candidates. I know to some that may seem odd since there are stark differences between the two. However, they do agree on alot of pertinent issues. The main differences I see are economic. I realize that it not an irrelavant subject but I’ve become skeptical of the so-called free market system. Suffice it to say that either candidate would be leaps and bounds above the two corporate parties leaders. I’m aware that winning the lottery is more probable than a thrid party getting into the White House and this is the reason why I harp on Electoral Reform so much. Their is no good reason for the Electoral College to stay in place but there are plenty of reasons to abolish it.

[quote]Zeppelin795 wrote:
biltritewave,

Ahhhh...nope, all of those don't need a court order....sorry! Go ahead and check for yourself.

Yes versions of SOME of these laws were in place prior to the patriot Act. However, they have been expanded and new laws have been created. Check out Sec.802 of the Pat. Act. You can be criminalized for legitimate expressions of political views. Section 411 helps back that up and also limits access to ideas. I realize these are only a few but there are plenty of more “goodies” brought to you by our elitist politicians.

So why don’t you do some reading of the Patriot Act and then come back when you have a clue. Until then…peace out![/quote]

Wrong. Perhaps you should read the same thing. If not call up Congressional Research Service and ask for a summary. Pretty straightforward answers to your questions.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
“Why wasn’t anything done about the terrorists caught in the Philipines back in 95’? What about all the info. handed over to the FBI in relation to Saudis who were taking flying lessons? Some of those killers asked just to be taught how to steer, not take off or land.”

Dude get with the program, obviously bush had operatives in the fbi who withheld the information on purpose to make sure the terror plot was as success so that 9/11 would give bush the popular support he needed to take over afghanistand and build an oil pipeline and Iraq to get all thier oil. This would also make haliburton trillions so cheny made sure they got those flight lessons as well.

There are alot of questions that still need to be answered but I don’t believe in the notion that this info. was held for the express purpose of waiting for the WTC to take place and then invade Iraq. I have said before on this forum that I believe that the level of corruption within the 2 major parties, the law enforcemnet and high level military is so endemic that there may be no turning back. Somewhere within this corrupt system lies the answeres. Will we ever know? Probably not. I do beleive that this administration used the WTC disaster as a springboard to invade Iraq on false pretenses, which is absolutely disgusting. They planned on invading Iraq before 9/11. When the world trade centers fell they claimed Saddam had somethign to do with it and the corporate media just shinned on along with all the sheeple in this country. If there was any country we should have invaded it would have to be Saudi Arabia but then again the Bush family is too involved with high level Saudi officals to do something real about terrorists who are related to WTC crime.

so you one one hand complain about shoddy intelligence services misisng a huge thing like that and then you complain about stepped up efforts to help these services do a better job? Where are you trying to go with this?

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayjains[/quote]