T Nation

To Juice or Not to Juice...

Now that I have your attention…I know this is an uncomfortable topic for many of you and many of you will probably skip right past this post by virtue of the title. But let’s be honest here; we all know that a huge number of gym attendees succumb to roids because of either a lack of progress, unreasonable expectations, bigorexia, etc.

My question is, for those that have used them at what point did you feel it was necessary? I’m 170lbs, and have had 14 inch arms forever and have only gotten considerably stronger (been working out for 3 years). I have tried eating myself fat, volume training, abbreviated training, HIT, and the less I trained the greater my strength gains were. None however gave more size. Maybe this is more common a scenario than I realize, and this is why I’m wondering if almost every modestly built guy (16-17 inch arms) has basically given in to juice? I am not advocating or crapping on roids, just wanting to hear honest arguments for and against the use and at what point you felt it was necessary to use them.

Thanks!

its never necessary

It’s not about eating yourself fat. You need the proper nutrients. You need to hit your macros. When you hit the proper calories from fat protein and carbs at the correct ratio . You say your 170 but how tall are you? If your 6’ than you haven’t reached your natural limit as let’s say if you were 5’2". What’s your bf%? For a while I would be bigger at 165 than I was at 173. Because my of how my bf% sat on my body.

Those who juice cause they need to are asking for trouble. because they get desperate and don’t do the right research. When ou do it cause you want to and you want to have the edge that being natural doesnt give you. You than take the time to learn and soak in the knowledge. But lay out your diet for us your height your age your current training your bf. so that someone can help you realize where your really are at.

17" arms are reachable for a natty. But then again a fully ripped to shreds 17 arm is a lot different to a normal 17 arm.

I think it all depends on what you want. Not everything is attainable naturally for everyone. I don’t think juicing is a bad thing probably no different from the masses getting smashed every weekend.

You only live once just be sensible and responsible.

It’s not that I haven’t done the proper research…we’ve all tried the routines in the magazines to no avail because we aren’t genetic freaks and never got into serious juicing. The most progress I’ve ever made was in hardgainer routines but never made gains in size, only strength (even more than bigger dudes). I’ve even tried a mix of the two worlds. I’m wondering if at 170lbs, 5 11, 10% bodyfat I am at the point where my 14 inch arms are only going to continue to get stronger due to muscle composition and a propensity to gain strength over size. I think weight training is less rocket science than many believe but I’m also starting to think that after a certain number of years, one has to look past his genetic limitations. I’ve never been anal about diet but I’ve always eaten 5 meals a day, 1 gram per pound, slow carbs, etc…don’t think diet’s the issue here.

your diet is definitely the issue. It always is. If you aren’t growing you need to eat more. You probably think you’re eating loads already, and maybe you are, but the fact is that no matter how much you are eating now, you need to eat more.

If you can’t grow without AAS you won’t grow with it. You’ll bloat up for a bit on cycle then just lose it all when you come off because you won’t be eating enough to maintain it.

I used to be convinced I was a hardgainer too.

You won’t see the gains you want at 1gram per pound that’s maintenance I know this cause I was the same height weight bf. it’s your diet. I eat no less than 1.5 grams per pound. My carbs oh man 300-500 grams a day. If I ate anything less than 4000 calories a day I was only maintaining. Get a good quality gainer. Should be about 1200 calories a drink. Drink one a day or split it twice a day.

I did half after workout half before bed. It makes it easier to get those carbs proteins and calories. Write your food intake for a week and you will see its your diet. Spoons of peanut butter help when your in a hurry or just don’t want to eat. It’s all clock work eat when the clock says to not your body

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

If you can’t grow without AAS you won’t grow with it.
[/quote]

This statement begs to ask the question, why do people even bother jumping on juice? If all it takes is to eat more and you will keep growing, you should theoretically never need juice to get to an advanced level.

If juice raises protein synthesis 50 fold then already you are getting a lot more out of the food you are putting in compared to being natural.

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

If you can’t grow without AAS you won’t grow with it.
[/quote]

This statement begs to ask the question, why do people even bother jumping on juice? If all it takes is to eat more and you will keep growing, you should theoretically never need juice to get to an advanced level.

[/quote]

nobody NEEDS juice to get to an advanced level. Lazy bastards like me just do it to get there faster

[quote]Brent1769 wrote:
You won’t see the gains you want at 1gram per pound that’s maintenance I know this cause I was the same height weight bf. it’s your diet. I eat no less than 1.5 grams per pound. My carbs oh man 300-500 grams a day. If I ate anything less than 4000 calories a day I was only maintaining. Get a good quality gainer. Should be about 1200 calories a drink. Drink one a day or split it twice a day. I did half after workout half before bed. It makes it easier to get those carbs proteins and calories. Write your food intake for a week and you will see its your diet. Spoons of peanut butter help when your in a hurry or just don’t want to eat. It’s all clock work eat when the clock says to not your body[/quote]

I remember eating like this over 20years ago, it was lots of food like 70’s big style to put on weight. It was hard to get past sticking points on the scale, but what I found mostly was I ended up shitting like 5 times a day and scales would hardly budge.

Thinking back on this maybe it was too much food. But hey it was fun having feasts of mammoth proportions.

Its worth a shot and has obviously worked for others.

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

If you can’t grow without AAS you won’t grow with it.
[/quote]

This statement begs to ask the question, why do people even bother jumping on juice? If all it takes is to eat more and you will keep growing, you should theoretically never need juice to get to an advanced level.

[/quote]

nobody NEEDS juice to get to an advanced level. Lazy bastards like me just do it to get there faster[/quote]

I am not going to argue with you. All those NPC competitors are just lazy bastards could have gotten their without juice.

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

[quote]iroczinoz wrote:

[quote]rds63799 wrote:

If you can’t grow without AAS you won’t grow with it.
[/quote]

This statement begs to ask the question, why do people even bother jumping on juice? If all it takes is to eat more and you will keep growing, you should theoretically never need juice to get to an advanced level.

[/quote]

nobody NEEDS juice to get to an advanced level. Lazy bastards like me just do it to get there faster[/quote]

I am not going to argue with you. All those NPC competitors are just lazy bastards could have gotten their without juice. [/quote]

It sounds a little bit like you are, anyway that’s not what I’m saying. We are talking about different things when we say “advanced level”. I just think of “advanced level” as having a good physique, whereas you think “advanced level” means NPC competitor. That’s where the difference of opinion is coming from. Obviously to get to NPC level you need juice

I am almost 20 years old. For the last, I kept doing my strength training, my strength increased but my weight kept steady at 96kg, even though I ate about 4500 calories per day. The picture in my avatar is when I was 96kg. I was frustrated and dissapointed. I wanted something to kick things up a notch. So, I used AAS for a short cycle, 23 days, which I am currently on.

I frontloaded sustanon and used about 30mg tren ace ED. 20 days in, my weight has gone up 8 kgs and something, no water retention whatsoever. I am even leaner and dryer (tren I guess?). Could I work harder and watch my nutrition more, in order to grow naturally? Sure thing. But just like rds63799, I am an impatient bastard.

I’ve never used AAS, and honestly, I’ve had so many long lay offs from training, coupled with a lot of crappy diet periods, and the drug abuse I’ve mentioned elsewhere, that I could have gotten way more out of training by now.

Even with all that, my arms are close to 17 cold, at 17 pumped. I’m 5’10, 180lbs. Your assumption that this can’t happen naturally is off the wall.

I’d also be curious to know what you can lift, since you mentioned a couple times how you keep getting stronger but not bigger. I haven’t seen anyone with 14" arms that’s legitimately strong. So maybe you don’t have ENOUGH strength yet. You also said you’ve had 14" arms ‘forever’. Define forever.

See that’s why I started I eventually wouldn’t gain size or strength I switched my training and diet. My measurements would change about ± 1/4" but that was from just body recomposition. After about a year of making sure it wasn’t my training or diet I decided to juice. And what do you know i know longer have that problem. But before you start just know its not your diet. Cause you don’t want to throw away hundreds of dollars on gear just to lose your gains shortly after

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

I haven’t seen anyone with 14" arms that’s legitimately strong. [/quote]

haha I wrote the same thing last night, but decided it wasn’t necessary and closed the window before hitting submit…thinking back on it, I wish I had posted it…very true statement

Actually I do consider myself strong compared to the majority in an average gym…I was squatting 315 for 5 reps to parallel, deadlifting 330, chinning with 60 and dipping with 75 attached to me. It’s not amazing by any means but with my measurements it made me feel like I’m doing something wrong because much bigger guys needed support to help them do dips with just their bodyweight. If you don’t believe you can be strong without size I suggest you read up on Judd Biasiotto :slight_smile: