To All The Unbelievers

I usually avoid these threads like the plague, but for some reason when I came home for lunch today I opened this thread and read. I’m really glad I did. When I read, "I am going to baptize the streets with the blood of Christian martyrs and proclaim my love to Jeebus Cripes… ", for the first time in a long while, a T-Nation thread made me laugh out loud. Then, when I got home, I opened the thread and read again.

I read, [quote]Go-Rilla wrote:

My Grandmother was involved in a serious automobile accident years ago when a 18 wheeler changed lanes without looking and ran her off the road. Days later as family and friends gathered in her hospital room she declared “The Lord was riding with me!” to which a close friend replied,
“I bet he won’t make that mistake again!”[/quote]

I laughed out loud again. I enjoyed these responses so much, I read them to my girlfriend. She laughed. Thanks guys.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

This should be an interesting discussion…[/quote]

Fuckin’ fascinating so far. Only ZEB can save this thread, someone chuck him a bone or something.

My understanding of the classic Christian belief regarding salvation is that good people who are not Christians through no fault of their own will burn in hell for all eternity not as punishment for not being Christian, but as punishment for some other sin or sins committed at some point during their lives. The classic Christian position is approximately:

  1. We have all committed one or more sins for which we deserve to suffer intensely for all eternity (or at least those of us who have reached a certain minimal level of maturity have committed one or more such sins).

  2. Believing and following Jesus is the only path offered by God to save us from what we truly deserve.

(Traditionalist Catholics and Fundamentalist Protestants would disagree on certain parts of exactly what constitutes “believing and following Jesus” in a way that offers the possibility of salvation, but would nonetheless agree on the basic premises of items #1 and #2 above.)

A position contrary to the combination of items #1 and #2 above would presumably have to include at least one of the following:

A) We have not all committed sins for which we deserve to suffer intensely for all eternity.

B) There is no such intense eternal suffering.

C) There is some means of obtaining God’s forgiveness or otherwise escaping one’s just punishment, other than #2 above.

The Original Post of this thread implicitly assumes propositions ‘A’ and ‘B’ to be false, and requests specifics with regards to proposition ‘C’.

Also, the question asked is not “what are your sins”, but “how will you escape the just punishment of your sins” (paraphrased).

Perhaps one could agree, disagree, respond, ignore, cheer, or ridicule based on the assumptions actually made and the question actually asked by the original post. In some but not all cases, the disagreement or ridicule seems to be based on something other than the assumptions actually made and the question actually asked by the OP.


But to give credit where credit is due, the person who said this thread belongs under “Get a Life” rather than “Politics and World Issues” is right. I would not agree that a thread on Christian faith or acceptance of Jesus would never belong under “ and World Issues”. But the original post did not address Christianity as it relates to the world or society, it only addressed Christianity as it relates to the individual. Therefore, there is no logical basis for this thread to be under “Politics and World Issues”.


This thread IS off topic for this forum. So here is a pic of Girls Aloud.

I believe that the question posed here is based upon a logical inconsistency that precludes it being sufficiently answered given the fact that it is directed to unbelievers and scoffers. Owning to the fact that these people are unbelievers and scoffers (and by extension partial to other dogmas) it is not possible that they intend to do anything about their ?sin? as it is intended to be construed by the OP as their comprehensions of ?sin? are informed by the dogmas to which they respectively prescribe, if indeed those dogmas include such a concept.

[quote]BigPaul wrote:
I believe that the question posed here is based upon a logical inconsistency that precludes it being sufficiently answered given the fact that it is directed to unbelievers and scoffers. Owning to the fact that these people are unbelievers and scoffers (and by extension partial to other dogmas) it is not possible that they intend to do anything about their ?sin? as it is intended to be construed by the OP as their comprehensions of ?sin? are informed by the dogmas to which they respectively prescribe, if indeed those dogmas include such a concept.[/quote]

Well this is a bodybuilding forum after all.

[quote]Stigg. wrote:
This thread IS off topic for this forum. So here is a pic of Girls Aloud. [/quote]

hAwt

[quote]BigPaul wrote:
I believe that the question posed here is based upon a logical inconsistency that precludes it being sufficiently answered given the fact that it is directed to unbelievers and scoffers. Owning to the fact that these people are unbelievers and scoffers (and by extension partial to other dogmas) it is not possible that they intend to do anything about their ?sin? as it is intended to be construed by the OP as their comprehensions of ?sin? are informed by the dogmas to which they respectively prescribe, if indeed those dogmas include such a concept.[/quote]

On the surface the question is illogical, but there is an underlying or implicit logic to posing the question to scoffers. Something along the lines of inciting doubt in at least one scoffer that perhaps there is a debt to be paid that is not being effectively addressed, despite his current beliefs, which would then eventually lead him to reconsider his current beliefs.

[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
On the surface the question is illogical, but there is an underlying or implicit logic to posing the question to scoffers. Something along the lines of inciting doubt in at least one scoffer that perhaps there is a debt to be paid that is not being effectively addressed, despite his current beliefs, which would then eventually lead him to reconsider his current beliefs.[/quote]

Good luck with that. This thread is dumb and so is anyone who thinks they will hammer religion into someone else who states they are a “non-believer”. To someone who doesn’t believe in God, there would be no “debt” because they consider themselves their own “god”. There is a huge difference between an agnostic and an atheist.

[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
On the surface the question is illogical, but there is an underlying or implicit logic to posing the question to scoffers. Something along the lines of inciting doubt in at least one scoffer that perhaps there is a debt to be paid that is not being effectively addressed, despite his current beliefs, which would then eventually lead him to reconsider his current beliefs.[/quote]

I have the same thought with respect to scoffers as an abstract concept, however judging by some of the exchanges I’ve born witness to here in the recent past I tend to conclude that scoffers referres to are those who prescribe to a different understanding /denomination /interpretation of christianity and its texts (otherwise they would fall under the headding of unbelievers) - and with that different understanding or interpretation a different (although perhaps only slightly so) dogma.

[i]“Judah said to Onan, “Lie with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.” But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD’s sight; so he put him to death also.”


Mmmmm… wrath-tastic…

[quote]NealRaymond2 wrote:
My understanding of the classic Christian belief regarding salvation is that good people who are not Christians through no fault of their own will burn in hell for all eternity not as punishment for not being Christian, but as punishment for some other sin or sins committed at some point during their lives. The classic Christian position is approximately:

  1. We have all committed one or more sins for which we deserve to suffer intensely for all eternity (or at least those of us who have reached a certain minimal level of maturity have committed one or more such sins).

  2. Believing and following Jesus is the only path offered by God to save us from what we truly deserve.

(Traditionalist Catholics and Fundamentalist Protestants would disagree on certain parts of exactly what constitutes “believing and following Jesus” in a way that offers the possibility of salvation, but would nonetheless agree on the basic premises of items #1 and #2 above.)

A position contrary to the combination of items #1 and #2 above would presumably have to include at least one of the following:

A) We have not all committed sins for which we deserve to suffer intensely for all eternity.

B) There is no such intense eternal suffering.

C) There is some means of obtaining God’s forgiveness or otherwise escaping one’s just punishment, other than #2 above.

The Original Post of this thread implicitly assumes propositions ‘A’ and ‘B’ to be false, and requests specifics with regards to proposition ‘C’.

Also, the question asked is not “what are your sins”, but “how will you escape the just punishment of your sins” (paraphrased).

Perhaps one could agree, disagree, respond, ignore, cheer, or ridicule based on the assumptions actually made and the question actually asked by the original post. In some but not all cases, the disagreement or ridicule seems to be based on something other than the assumptions actually made and the question actually asked by the OP.


But to give credit where credit is due, the person who said this thread belongs under “Get a Life” rather than “Politics and World Issues” is right. I would not agree that a thread on Christian faith or acceptance of Jesus would never belong under “ and World Issues”. But the original post did not address Christianity as it relates to the world or society, it only addressed Christianity as it relates to the individual. Therefore, there is no logical basis for this thread to be under “Politics and World Issues”.
[/quote]

The East Coast version of Hspder! :slight_smile:

Steve O

The rest of us have moved on mate, its the 21st century and we live in a democratic society with laws and a justice system, we also have a vast amount of scientific evidence to explain why and how we are here.

We no longer need to believe in the writings of a book that was written by a load of stoned hippies 2000 years ago, because we now understand that it is all BS.

I am sorry that you have been brought up to beleive in this stuff, I am sorry that your parents have brainwashed you with such nonsense, I am sorry that you do not have the intellegence to look beyond what you beleive you know

I am sorry that you are so lacking in positive self beleif that you have to post these threads to confirm to yourself your own beliefs.

I am sorry that I have spent 5 minutes of my time replying to you.

now…

STFU

[quote]Professor X wrote:
NealRaymond2 wrote:
On the surface the question is illogical, but there is an underlying or implicit logic to posing the question to scoffers. Something along the lines of inciting doubt in at least one scoffer that perhaps there is a debt to be paid that is not being effectively addressed, despite his current beliefs, which would then eventually lead him to reconsider his current beliefs.

Good luck with that. This thread is dumb and so is anyone who thinks they will hammer religion into someone else who states they are a “non-believer”. To someone who doesn’t believe in God, there would be no “debt” because they consider themselves their own “god”. There is a huge difference between an agnostic and an atheist.[/quote]

I see your point Professor, but if you owed money to someone – lots of money, let’s say. Now, lets say that you had some sort of memory problem, and therefore you really believed that you simply didn’t owe anything to this person. Does the fact that you believe tht you don’t owe the debt mean that you REALLY don’t owe the debt? Of course not!

Same thing here! If God says that the “wages [payment due for] of sin is death,” meaning both physical death and spiritual death – then I ask once again.

What are YOU [everyone that is a scoffer and unbeliever] going to do about YOUR sin?

If you are rejecting Christ, who claims to be the ONLY WAY to salvation – how are you going to pay?

[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Steve O

The rest of us have moved on mate, its the 21st century and we live in a democratic society with laws and a justice system, we also have a vast amount of scientific evidence to explain why and how we are here.

We no longer need to believe in the writings of a book that was written by a load of stoned hippies 2000 years ago, because we now understand that it is all BS.

I am sorry that you have been brought up to beleive in this stuff, I am sorry that your parents have brainwashed you with such nonsense, I am sorry that you do not have the intellegence to look beyond what you beleive you know

I am sorry that you are so lacking in positive self beleif that you have to post these threads to confirm to yourself your own beliefs.

I am sorry that I have spent 5 minutes of my time replying to you.

now…
STFU[/quote]

Let me clarify this point, since it seems that you take some sort of solice thinking that I have been simply “brought up” Christian.

I am Jewish, and I can certainly say that my very orthodox great grandfather, and my family didn’t “bring me up” as a Chrisitan.

I simply heard the Gospel (good news) of Jesus and came to believe. That’s all – simple faith – the Bible way.

Now, I ask you…
What are YOU going to do about YOUR sin?

what is my sin?

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:

I see your point Professor, but if you owed money to someone – lots of money, let’s say. Now, lets say that you had some sort of memory problem, and therefore you really believed that you simply didn’t owe anything to this person. Does the fact that you believe tht you don’t owe the debt mean that you REALLY don’t owe the debt? Of course not!

Same thing here! If God says that the “wages [payment due for] of sin is death,” meaning both physical death and spiritual death – then I ask once again.

What are YOU [everyone that is a scoffer and unbeliever] going to do about YOUR sin?

If you are rejecting Christ, who claims to be the ONLY WAY to salvation – how are you going to pay? [/quote]

You obviously don’t see my point because you are still asking the same question. To someone who refuses to believe in God, THERE IS NO DEBT. Therefore, how could someone who believes there is no debt come up with an answer of how to pay a debt they don’t believe in? Your approach makes no sense at all. It is like you get off on trying to ram God down the throats of others. First, that has to be the CHOICE of the individual whether they believe. You have nothing to do with it. You trying to force people to believe is the same mentality that has led to wars based on religion in the past. In fact, I truly believe the only reason you aren’t a part of a Crusade to kill the non-believers if they don’t convert is because in this day and age, you would get arrested.

Steve O I apologise for assuming that you are Christian.

So when you say ‘you heard the gospel’ ‘the bible way’ Does this mean that you listened to someone preaching, and decided from that point on that you would change your whole life and that if you didn’t you would be eternally damned in the afterlife, and you beleived this preaching so much that you now decide to try to change other peoples beliefs?

Damn man talk about impressionable, I have read some good fiction in my time but not enough to make me start wearng a silly hat and chop my son’s foreskin in half

Steve, you still haven’t answered my questions: what of a Muslim asking what YOU are going to do for your sin? Clearly, to him or her, your salvation will not come through Christ.

And your analogy of owing money holds here. You “owe a debt,” but you forget that you can’t pay it through Jesus. Does that mean you don’t owe a debt anymore?

And this isn’t a rhetorical question to show you up, I actually expect an answer.

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
This is an open challenge to all of you unbelievers and scoffers. You have expressed your unbelief in a multitude of ways and in several threads on the subject of the Christian Gospel.

You have rejected and continue to reject God’s ONLY WAY OF SALVATION = JESUS CHRIST! . You scoff at those who believe and dare to proclaim God’s Truth, while some of you rail on God Himself.

The Challenge: What are YOU [individually] going to do about your SIN?

The Bible says that “…the wages [just payment] for sin is death” – physical death as well as spiritual death.

So, what are your plans for dealing with your sin, since you reject God’s plan.

Please do the following in your answer:

(1) Be very specific – tell us what, specifically, you can do about your own sin debt.

(2) Talk about only yourself and your beliefs here.

(3) If you don’t believe in the Bible, don’t use the Bible against itself. That is not logical. If you don’t believe in something, then don’t use that something in your answer.

(4)Tell the specific authority that you are using – i.e. cite the source of your beliefs. What are they based upon?

This should be an interesting discussion…[/quote]

? Less than 1 percent of Japan is Christian, sooo I guess we are all going to hell. So no more Sony and Toyotas for you guys.