Tito vs Shamrock

A couple of things. First, I agree with the thought that Shamrock behaved badly in UF3. I gained respect for Tito and never thought that could be possible (I respected his ability in the 8, just not as a person).

Second, can a 42-43 yr old have a realistic chance against a 31 yr old in his prime. Yes. Does Ken have a realistic chance against Tito? I would like him (Ken) to prove me wrong. In other words, nyet.

Though an older Royce didn’t do so well against a younger Hughes, though I don’t think age had much to do with it.

[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
Are there any 40 and up UFC, Pride or other leagues of fighters who are still dominate?
[/quote]

Marc Coleman is still pretty dominant. He can’t beat the big three (Fedor, Nog Cro Cop) but he pretty much smashes everyone else.

I’d love to see Shamrock pull this one off, but I’m pretty convinced that Tito is going to pound the crap out of Ken again. Tito in the second by KO.

[quote]AgentOrange wrote:
Every time I see Shamrock and Ortiz get in a ‘confrontation’, I just shake my head.

I honestly believe that a lot of this is scripted, especially how Shamrock just flies off the handle for no apparent reason. That, or he’s bipolar. But, come on, he is a former WWF wrestler.

Couple that with a lot of the bullshit decisions I’ve seen in favour of fighters that the UFC is grooming for superstardom (ie: TUF graduates), and I can’t help but think the UFC is turning into the WWF.[/quote]

You are right on the money about about the UFC grooming certain fighters. Perfect example is Lebens’ last fight on UFN 5. Big John should have stopped the fight the first time Silva knocked him the fuck out.

Ken Shamrock is well past his peak and will no doubt lose to Tito once again. But even at his best in say 1996 (?) the Tito of 2006 could defeat him.

Shamrock is basically a very one dimensional fighter. He can stand and brawl (not box) so he does have a punchers chance. And he can throw a leg lock on you IF you have little submission experience. And just because he gets the leg or ankle lock does not mean that it will end the fight. See Shamrock vs Frye. (Yes Frye wins doesn’t almost everyone when they fight Shamrock?)

Other than that Shamrock is very limited in his fading abiliities. He should have gone out on a high note after he defeated Kimo for the second time back in UFC 48.

After Tito defeats him for the second time will Dana White and the UFC still think that Shamrock is a marketable commodity?

Will people still pay to see “The Worlds Most Dangerous(ly overrated) Man?”

Hughes-Gracie
Leben-Silva
Shamrock-Ortiz
? Why do they do these fights?
Hurry up and make BJ, GSP and Hughes fight each other.
Get somebody new for Liddell. How about…I can’t think of anybody who is available.
While they are at it. Borrow Manhoef from K-1 for the MW division. I think the fans would like Manhoef. Great standing, very muscular. Gets tired though.

I’m a big MMA fan. IMHO,

Randy Couture could beat Chuck Liddell 4/10 times.
Randy could beat Tito Ortiz 8/10 times.
He would also beat mostly any other non top 5 in the world LHW more often than not. That’s pretty damn good for a 43 year old guy.
I’d love to see a Couture Shamrock out of retirement fight even though 9/10 times Couture would demolish Shamrock.(strange how the two oldest are in the best shape)

As to Ken vs. Tito, yes Tito is the likely winner but anyone not giving a healthy Ken at least a 40% chance is kidding themselves. Tito also decided to fight with a bad knee. We saw what happened when Forrest low kicked that knee. He actually apologized for that!
The ideal strategy for Ken would be to target the knee with kicks, then rock the momentarily off-balanced Tito to the ground, and pounce on that knee. It would be a mistake if he tried to GNP.
With that said, I still think Tito will win if he protects his knee.

I would like to see the return of Frank Shamrock. A much better fighter than Ken.

[quote]otoko wrote:
Hughes-Gracie
Leben-Silva
Shamrock-Ortiz
? Why do they do these fights?
Hurry up and make BJ, GSP and Hughes fight each other.
Get somebody new for Liddell. How about…I can’t think of anybody who is available.
While they are at it. Borrow Manhoef from K-1 for the MW division. I think the fans would like Manhoef. Great standing, very muscular. Gets tired though.
[/quote]

They do these fights because the average viewer doesn’t even know who Manhoef is. They know Shamrock, Gracie, Tank, Kimo, etc. Big names, but clearly not the best fighters in the world, country, or weight class.

It sucks, but as undying MMA fans and participants, we must strive to find the greatest fighters in the world fighting in different venues, and force our beliefs and findings on the naive and uninformed fans of America.

[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
Yeah Tito’s persona was and is very entertaining and it was exactly what the UFC was missing. Instead of just billing the UFC as singular force, they need to start building the fighters persona instead of just slapping a Xyience shirt on them, so some personality can shine through, whether good or bad it makes a fight contain more action and reaction.

By the way great posts guys, and nice recap on the Shamrock Ortiz feud.

I have a question for you guys, do you think a 42-43 year old has a realistic chance with a 31 year-old in his prime, how much is age a factor? I can think of Randy Couture at 40 as still dominate. Are there any 40 and up UFC, Pride or other leagues of fighters who are still dominate?

I agree in another post about Shamrock being a good fighter but never a great nor a legendary fighter, but this is where marketing and personality come through.[/quote]

I agree with you 100% The UFC really has to start developing more innovation and marketability with their organization.

To me, the UFC is right on the cusp of surpassing every other fighting organization in America and is very close to becoming mainstream. Now, however, they need to stop relying on the mediocre fighters of the past, but the fighters of the present.

Unfortunately, the best fighters of the present are virtually unknown to most normal people because of what I perceive to be a serious flaw in marketability and the inability of the UFC to capitalize on the value of entertainment.

I don’t want to suggest that they make it more like the WWF, but they need to change. They need to market the fighters more affectively. Even with simple things as better entrance theme songs, light shows, fireworks, highlight videos, Spike TV insider looks, etc. (I don’t know about any of you, but besides the UFC, Spike TV is one of the worst channels on television).

I know some of you may bash me for saying these things for it may seem like I am “selling out”, but I’m sure I’m not the only one whose hair raised during Arlovski’s entrance when it was pitch dark and the siren was going off while the pitbull was barking. People feed off of that stuff, regardless of how corny it may be.

Sure these guys are professional fighters, but they are entertainers in the average man’s mind because that’s why they watch them…to be entertained. They need to start developing people’s personas, character traits, story-lines, etc.

If they did it right, in my opinion, it would not only benefit the sport itself in terms of profit through merchandise, attendance, PPV orders, etc. but the fighters themselves could enjoy more fame, fortune, etc. Because in my opinion, out of all the sports, they are right at the top in terms of deserving more reward for their hardwork. You don’t go into a baseball game literally fearing for your livelihood because the team you are facing is going to knock you unconcious in front of millions of people…

Woohoo, another fantastic fight brought to you by the UFC. Haha. Man, the UFC is hurting. In any case, I think Ortiz wins this fight rather easily. I won’t watch it though.

In much better MMA news, this Saturday the Pride OWGP continues! Now that is something I will be watching.

[quote]SprinterOne wrote:
Woohoo, another fantastic fight brought to you by the UFC. Haha. Man, the UFC is hurting. In any case, I think Ortiz wins this fight rather easily. I won’t watch it though.

In much better MMA news, this Saturday the Pride OWGP continues! Now that is something I will be watching.[/quote]

Indeed, Critical Countdown is far and away the best card yet this year. I will still watch the UFC as well, I really like Arlovski and hope he murders that turd Sylvia. WFA on the 22nd is going to be pretty awesome. I really hope they give UFC some good competition here in the American market to force Dana to start doing some of those things that BigBlue talked about. This TUF crap is starting to get on my nerves.

[quote]Donut62 wrote:
Indeed, Critical Countdown is far and away the best card yet this year. I will still watch the UFC as well, I really like Arlovski and hope he murders that turd Sylvia. WFA on the 22nd is going to be pretty awesome. I really hope they give UFC some good competition here in the American market to force Dana to start doing some of those things that BigBlue talked about. This TUF crap is starting to get on my nerves.[/quote]

So what happens after Arlovski beats Sylvia, do they fight again? Seriously, are they the only 2 heavyweights?

[quote]otoko wrote:
Hughes-Gracie
Leben-Silva
Shamrock-Ortiz
? Why do they do these fights?

[/quote]

These fights are just filler between the couple good match ups a year.

If the UFC can market Leben, they can market Manhoef. Sure most Americans do not know who Manhoef is. Though with the UFC’s reach and resources they should be able to market anybody.

Sorry for the subject change, but what about Pride Fighting. You guys got any info on them.

Pride? This weekend the open weight Grand Prix.
Wanderlei Silva-Fujita
Nogueira-Werdum
Barnett-Hunt
Crocop-Yoshida

separate matches
Nastula-Drago
Cyborg-Nakamura
and…

wait there is a guy doing the Pride thread over on strength sports. Check that out

I’d rather keep talking about Ken Shamrocks diminishing skills…

Do you think he will fight until he is the “Worlds LEAST Dangerous man?”

John McCarthy: (Looking at one fighter then the other in the Octagon) “Are you ready”

Ken Shamrock: (In an old man voice) “Hey McCarthy pass me my walker then I’ll be ready. Oh and I have to take my teeth out first. I really hate that guy I’m fighting…um…what’s his name again?”

Okay, the fight is this Saturday night let’s have some specific predictions.

I’ll begin:

Tito wins by referee stoppage in the second round. I’m going to say 8:32 of the second round.

Okay…that was nutty and probably specific to the point of guaranteeing an error

But what if I’m right?

Let’s have some other predictions and see who gets the closest.

Maybe we can get TC to give a free tub of GROW! away as a prize…

Okay, maybe not.