Time boxing Champions Trained

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

Right…

When a dude from a hunter-gatherer tribe is beating world records in anything other than marathons let me know.

Also, people really need to stop over exaggerating the abilities of old time fighters. Yes they were some brutally tough men, but you are deluding yourself if you don’t think the proficiency and technical mastery is not far better today.

The heavyweight division today is a joke yes, but every other division has champions who would make a mockery of older fighters. The level of competition is far better today, and athletes ARE bigger, stronger and faster. Quality of life and nutrition on demand goes a long long way.

22

So you’re a teenager, huh?

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
You excel at setting up straw man arguments and then cutting them down. No one ever said that there wasn’t genetic differences between individuals and populations that make one or a group of people better suited to X task. This is always going to be true. Like I mentioned, the tara humara might have population level characteristics that make them better runners than X other tribe, however, most of their ability is just what humans are born with. It could be equally the case (though I doubt it) that they possess population level characteristics that make them shittier runners. Allegedly they have only been in this area for 500 years, not enough time for any relevant sweeping change throughout the population. (it could be that this population ended up in this area due to the fact that they already had genetic qualities that made them good runners.)
Their ability is some-thing that all human’s are born with. [\quote]

So you admit, some groups are genetically are better suited for certain tasks the others, but refuse to apply this to the Tarah. because for you, it comes down to “we all can run”.
Their ancestral, genetic material is far older then 500 years. And 500 years is plenty of time for a small adaptation, if the selecive pressure is high, which it certainly was.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Secondly, whether a creature has 2 or 4 legs isn’t a determining factor in whether or not they have adaptations from head to toe for running. When I say we’re “built” for running what I mean is that there are skeletal structures, muscles, ligaments and etc that humans have because our ancestors ran a lot, on a daily basis, because running was a necessary physical requirement for survival.
[\quote]

Nonsense.
Look at how tribal societies across the earth live.
A very tiny part runs, if at all. In the case of endurance running, it’s more of an extended hustle.
Most walk, but don’t run.
Upright walking has other benefits (it’s a very economical gait, you have your hands free while spotting stuff and looking scary), it most certainly isn’t a speedfactor.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
The ostrich doesn’t have 4 legs, but it can out-run many that do. Many four legged creatures can’t run all that fast. Humans are an upright two legged animal, none-the-less humans evolved to run, and many of our bodily structures and adaptations have almost no use outside of running. A look through some basic evolutionary biology textbooks should drive that idea home hard enough.
[\quote]
Lol
Straight from some barefoot runner’s bible, I suppose.
Most animals are faster and more agile then we are.
We are very adaptable, however, and and can, if we train specifically, be a great Jack-of-all-trades.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Thirdly, dempsey would smash most fighters in or out of his weight-class. I am not saying he would have went toe to toe with the likes of Tyson, Lewis, Klitschko and etc but he’d make a mockery of most heavy-weights through-out history, including modern day ones.
[/quote]
Trollolol

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Hell, he’d probably have even smashed up some of those fighters. It’s not like he couldn’t have gained 20pounds if he lived in the modern day, hell, he probably wouldn’t even have needed it.[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
how about you spar with an amateur heavyweight just once?

23

So you’re a teenager, huh?

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
You excel at setting up straw man arguments and then cutting them down. No one ever said that there wasn’t genetic differences between individuals and populations that make one or a group of people better suited to X task. This is always going to be true. Like I mentioned, the tara humara might have population level characteristics that make them better runners than X other tribe, however, most of their ability is just what humans are born with. It could be equally the case (though I doubt it) that they possess population level characteristics that make them shittier runners. Allegedly they have only been in this area for 500 years, not enough time for any relevant sweeping change throughout the population. (it could be that this population ended up in this area due to the fact that they already had genetic qualities that made them good runners.)
Their ability is some-thing that all human’s are born with. [\quote]

So you admit, some groups are genetically are better suited for certain tasks the others, but refuse to apply this to the Tarah. because for you, it comes down to “we all can run”.
Their ancestral, genetic material is far older then 500 years. And 500 years is plenty of time for a small adaptation, if the selecive pressure is high, which it certainly was.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Secondly, whether a creature has 2 or 4 legs isn’t a determining factor in whether or not they have adaptations from head to toe for running. When I say we’re “built” for running what I mean is that there are skeletal structures, muscles, ligaments and etc that humans have because our ancestors ran a lot, on a daily basis, because running was a necessary physical requirement for survival.
[\quote]

Nonsense.
Look at how tribal societies across the earth live.
A very tiny part runs, if at all. In the case of endurance running, it’s more of an extended hustle.
Most walk, but don’t run.
Upright walking has other benefits (it’s a very economical gait, you have your hands free while spotting stuff and looking scary), it most certainly isn’t a speedfactor.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
The ostrich doesn’t have 4 legs, but it can out-run many that do. Many four legged creatures can’t run all that fast. Humans are an upright two legged animal, none-the-less humans evolved to run, and many of our bodily structures and adaptations have almost no use outside of running. A look through some basic evolutionary biology textbooks should drive that idea home hard enough.
[\quote]

Lol
Straight from some barefoot runner’s bible, I suppose.
Most animals are faster and more agile then we are.
We are very adaptable, however, and and can, if we train specifically, be a great Jack-of-all-trades.

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Thirdly, dempsey would smash most fighters in or out of his weight-class. I am not saying he would have went toe to toe with the likes of Tyson, Lewis, Klitschko and etc but he’d make a mockery of most heavy-weights through-out history, including modern day ones.
[/quote]

Trollolol

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Hell, he’d probably have even smashed up some of those fighters. It’s not like he couldn’t have gained 20pounds if he lived in the modern day, hell, he probably wouldn’t even have needed it.[/quote]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
how about you spar with an amateur heavyweight just once?

24

“(a) complex adaptations necessarily require many genes to regulate their development, and (b) sexual recombination makes it improbable that all the necessary gees for a complex adaptation would be together at once in the same individual, if genes coding for comple adaptatiosn varied substancially between individuals, selection, interacting with sexual recombination, tends to impose relative uniformity at the functional level in complex adaptive design” - "On the universality of Human Nature and the uniqueness of the individual: the role of genetics and adaptation. - Tooby and Cosmides

Any complex adaptation in humans tends to become species-typical, for the same reason that psychological adaptations are species typical, as a product of our biology. Which is why we don’t find sub-populations of human with special organs for breathing in the water, or humans with four legs, or humans with whatever stupid adaptation you would think they would get.

If you want to make the claim that X population of tribals has X adaptation that the rest of humans don’t have, you are the one making a claim about reality (a very big one) it’s up to you to show that your claim has even the tiniest basis in reality. The burden of evidence is on you.

Humans do all possess adaptations for running, these adaptations are species typical. (all healthy humans have them) we’re born with them and theres mountains of evidence that back this up. On top of that many tribes, many humans who routinely run are capable of amazing feats of endurance and speed (many outside the tara humara)

When you point out the evidence for your claims that the Tara Humara are esp gifted I’ll admit you’re right, until then you’re just making claims about a population of human having non-species typical biology that makes them esp good runners.

yeah, well besides you typing it, you didn’t actually support your out-landish claim. In humans adaptations usually become species typical, when people are ignorant of evolutionary biology they don’t usually realize that, so they make out-landish claims about the genetic superiority of one group or another at X task.

Yeah some people are born with a thick neck and so could make a good football player, some people are born with a slightly narrower waist, potentially maker them faster sprinters. The Tara Humara might have a few genetic qualities that make them better runners within the normal variation of individuals and human populations, most of their ability is some-thing all humans are born with, they have just developed it through endless training.

25

They don’t have any particular or special aspect of genetics or biology that the rest of us lack that allows them to run like that. You make the claim without the tiniest bit of evidence, which is a joke in and of itself, you also make a claim which goes against most of modern evolutionary biology, probably without even realizing it.

If they had any genetic or biological trait that allowed them to run better it would have to be very simplistic(not complex) or else it would be species typical. If you are claiming that they have this noncomple physical or genetic superiority over other humans, the burden is on you to show the evidence.

Other than that you’re just running your mouth.

26

You don’t understand what I’m arguing here for, nor do you understand your own argument.

The Tarahumara weren’t mentioned by me first. They are usually brought up to defend radical “runnerism” (‘we all can run, running is the most natural sport’ and crap like this).
Stuff you undoubtely have come across.

If what you read about these people is even remotely true, then yes, they are, as a tribe, genetically gifted.

For this you don’t need extra organs, but very small adaptations.
Adaptations that we can very easily observe every time at the olympic games.

Some races or ethnicities are just plainly better equipped for specialized tasks, and the more specialized the more apparent it gets.
Or do you want to tell me that average Kenians are not genetically better suited to running marathons then the average Inuit? You’d be out of your mind to dispute that. Btw, I gave you an early example with oly lifting and stockier ethnicities.
Things like that are actually quite measurable. Alghough, because of the World War 2 it’s a bit of a minefield to do so openly.

You argue that EVERYONE could run like the Tarah. and perform these outlandish feats of endurance (eg. seniors running ultramarathons easily for days while only occasionally sipping some beer), which is laughable, since it’s a marketing idea you’ve fallen for.

27

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
My point is:
We don’t know.

People exaggerate - a lot.
It’s a feature of homo sapiens.

Call it make belief, creative reality-shaping, lying, the cultural momentum in a society when the loudest shittalkers get the greatest attention etc

I don’t say that there couldn’t be great athletes in the nearly forgotten past.
And sometimes it’s a blessing for an aspiring athlete to have only limited resources, just like you said.
(Eg Schwarzenegger. Rural childhood with no T-Nation or fancy stuff. Although on closer look one has to wonder if his real talent was his unbreakable liver)

But most legendary feats -let’s say over 95%- are fabricated. Not even with bad intentions.
[/quote]

I agree with that.
But the fact is- world boxing champion is an athlete that came on top.There is not factor of accident /luck here.Any world champion is a grest athlete by definion.
The real question is how much greater are boxing champion of today compared to those 110-100 years ago.

I still find those old champions impressive.I believe they were tougher psychologicaly than are champions of today.Its a simple consequence of living in those rugged poor old times.

28

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
Baron Minhauzen is your great-great granfather?
[/quote]

Sure, why not.[/quote]

;))

29

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I don’t want to derail your thread as I am in agreement that old-time fighters were in a class seperate from most modern athletes, that they trained hard, that they were tough as nails, none the less:

You’re right, a lot of modern day tribal and hunter-gatherer’s exist. You ask me where is the videos of them performing these physical feats. (though the videos themselves aren’t always taken by anthropologists but other scientists as well, ethnographers, etc)

tara humara for running: The Tarahumara - A Hidden Tribe of Superathletes Born to Run - YouTube

lol, “weird or what” (I know, a ridiculous show) but the info is fairly accurate enough.

I was watching a video the other day (BBC human planet, maybe), of some tribal, spear fishing in the water, he was just walking around on the bottom of the sea floor. - YouTube

(like the video points out, hold your breath with this guy see how long you can do it, just sitting there watching him)

You can also watch a lot of documentaries or specials on tribals/hunter-gatherers that highlight some of their physical abilities with or without weapons.

It’s beyond impressive. The guy in the water, his heart rate goes to 30bmp, he goes 20meters down to the sea floor where the pressure is so intense that it “crushes” his chest, and squeezes the air in his lungs to 1/3rd of it’s usual volume. I would venture to say the average man or athlete, would be hard-pressed to DO ANYTHING under those circumstances, let alone hunt, under-water. [/quote]

French dunker jumping high (NOT A TRIBAL MAN) ;))

30

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
I don’t want to derail your thread as I am in agreement that old-time fighters were in a class seperate from most modern athletes, that they trained hard, that they were tough as nails, none the less:

You’re right, a lot of modern day tribal and hunter-gatherer’s exist. You ask me where is the videos of them performing these physical feats. (though the videos themselves aren’t always taken by anthropologists but other scientists as well, ethnographers, etc)

tara humara for running: The Tarahumara - A Hidden Tribe of Superathletes Born to Run - YouTube

lol, “weird or what” (I know, a ridiculous show) but the info is fairly accurate enough.

I was watching a video the other day (BBC human planet, maybe), of some tribal, spear fishing in the water, he was just walking around on the bottom of the sea floor. - YouTube

(like the video points out, hold your breath with this guy see how long you can do it, just sitting there watching him)

You can also watch a lot of documentaries or specials on tribals/hunter-gatherers that highlight some of their physical abilities with or without weapons.

It’s beyond impressive. The guy in the water, his heart rate goes to 30bmp, he goes 20meters down to the sea floor where the pressure is so intense that it “crushes” his chest, and squeezes the air in his lungs to 1/3rd of it’s usual volume. I would venture to say the average man or athlete, would be hard-pressed to DO ANYTHING under those circumstances, let alone hunt, under-water. [/quote]

Damien Walters =NOT a tribal man

31

http://www.youtube.com/user/damienwalters?blend=1&ob=4 Damien Walters

32

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Right…

When a dude from a hunter-gatherer tribe is beating world records in anything other than marathons let me know.

Also, people really need to stop over exaggerating the abilities of old time fighters. Yes they were some brutally tough men, but you are deluding yourself if you don’t think the proficiency and technical mastery is not far better today.

The heavyweight division today is a joke yes, but every other division has champions who would make a mockery of older fighters. The level of competition is far better today, and athletes ARE bigger, stronger and faster. Quality of life and nutrition on demand goes a long long way.[/quote]

And who the fuck actually argues for the opposite?? Thats not a point of these thread.

33

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Right…

When a dude from a hunter-gatherer tribe is beating world records in anything other than marathons let me know.

Also, people really need to stop over exaggerating the abilities of old time fighters. Yes they were some brutally tough men, but you are deluding yourself if you don’t think the proficiency and technical mastery is not far better today.

The heavyweight division today is a joke yes, but every other division has champions who would make a mockery of older fighters. The level of competition is far better today, and athletes ARE bigger, stronger and faster. Quality of life and nutrition on demand goes a long long way.[/quote]

And who the fuck actually argues for the opposite?? Thats not a point of these thread.
[/quote]

That post wasn’t necessarily aimed at you, rather our friend who thinks athletes got lazy or something…

34

Ok, I see that a thread about cool videos of old time boxers has turned into an anthropology debate, sweet.

A couple of thoughts/additions even though I am late to the party:

The following all assume we agree that selection pressure affects the expression of genes. The natural vs. un-natural vs. supernatural nature of these pressures does not need to be defined in order for the following comments to hold.

Humans are Meant to?

As far as the meant to run vs. meant to walk debate goes I would state that we are actually evolved to be able to move while carrying shit in our hands. Bipedal locomotion is an absolutely ridiculous way to move about. It takes a degree of balance and coordination that quadrupeds do not have to exert. Yes ostriches and emus can move at a good pace, but flightless birds are sort of a weird branch from the rest. And even if we wanted to use them as the champs of bipedal locomotion there are huge differences in the anatomy of our knees and hips compared to those of an ostrich.

Our upright posture forces us to move slowly when compared to most any other mammal of similar size. What it grants us is the ability to move about while holding, and consequently transporting, objects in our hands. We can walk while holding something with almost the same level of ease as walking unencumbered. This ability puts us far ahead of even our closest primate relatives who have to knuckle walk to get a decent speed or travel over flat land for any distance.

Evidence of apes and even some birds using objects as tools invalidates the notion that only humans are tool makers, but we seem to be unique in crafting, maintaining, and transporting tools. How much the ability to take tools with us and re use and refine them spurred mental development is a matter of conjecture and debate. Instead of Man the Tool Maker maybe it should be Man the Tool Carrier, but that does not sound as profound.

So while we can run/sprint/jump if we had to do the activity/exercise we were most fit for in nature we would be transporting something, and it would likely have to do with getting us laid (but that is branching off from the subject).

On Genetic Variance in Our Species:

Species can be grossly defined as a group of organisms that possess similar genetic traits that is capable of inter-breeding. The amount of genetic and morphological variance is what determines sub-species vs. race. So noting that we only see relatively small, though often significant variances in physical form and physiological characteristics in humans is sort of a Bukaroo Banzai observation.

It is basically just part of the definition, so of course any variances are minor compared to an extra set of legs.

500 years is plenty of time to see differences in the frequency of gene expression. If we call a generation as 25 years then 500 years gives us 20 opportunities for certain traits to be selected for preferentially. Assuming the fast runners get it on more often, that is doable.

Now-as far as Combat Board Comments go:

Modern boxing champions train hard. Boxing champs of the past trained hard. It goes with the territory.

Dempsey would have been destroyed by either Klitschko. He had trouble against someone who could use a good jab, throw in the size difference and his chances look pretty bleak. He would fair much better against the modern light heavies. I say this as a fan of Dempsey.

If we want to play the what if game we should also consider the rules, and how they are to be enforced. The “long count” in Dempsey’s career illustrates one change between his time and today, going to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown.

Regards,

Robert A

35

Whatever. Hunter-gatherers where humans spent 99.9% of our time as a species had to run down quadrupeds on foot for food, long before the invention of the bow man was running down food. There’s a reason humans are the only mammal that run 30-40miles, in marathons, just for the fun of it.

The only animals that can even run that far, for endurance, are like horses and wolves, and there’s a lot of arguement that the human is the better endurance animal, since we can run them down over long-distances. About 2 million years ago adaptations that had nothing to do with walking started showing up in humans. We can run in conditions no other animal can run. Humans are advanced endurance runners in the animal world, we’re evolved for walking, bipedalism, and running.

“The study notes that athletic humans can outrun horses and antelopes over extremely long distances. In parts of Africa this technique is still used today by hunters to exhaust their prey.” - Humans Were Born to Run, Fossil Study Suggests

Any good evolutionary biology book will smash that note home hard enough, down to tendons in the neck to maintain head alignment/posture when running. It’s a dumb arguement to say humans are naturally walkers, or naturally able to hold things in their hands, we can naturally be 5000 million different things, we are still runners and have been for the last 2 million years.

You don’t out-run horses or other animals like that to spear them by hand or with a throwing spear, unless your part of a species that has adaptations for running. Humans have many adaptations for the purpose of running that serve no other purpose but than to be effective during a run.

36

Which is why when you run 14 miles a day with 100meter sprint intervals without stopping to walk every-day like Jefferies, you end up super built up, super conditioned, because you are working a lot of physiological systems that don’t get worked outside of running, muscles, tendons and ligaments that “evolved” to allow you to run, that don’t get used in other tasks like strength-training or skill-work. Part of the reason conditioning work is so important for boxers.

37

[quote]SKELAC wrote:
A bit of info about his training.Not sure its legit.

“Jeffries was a naturally gifted athlete, he was a star athlete in high school who could run 100 metres in less than 10 sec”

Given the world record didn’t crack the 10 sec mark til the late 60’s, I’d go with big stink pile. Unless one believes some high school kid was besting the world’s top sprinters of the next 80 years. Arrrnnnoollld! Brrrrruuuce!

38

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Whatever. Hunter-gatherers where humans spent 99.9% of our time as a species had to run down quadrupeds on foot for food, long before the invention of the bow man was running down food. There’s a reason humans are the only mammal that run 30-40miles, in marathons, just for the fun of it. The only animals that can even run that far, for endurance, are like horses and wolves, and there’s a lot of arguement that the human is the better endurance animal, since we can run them down over long-distances. About 2 million years ago adaptations that had nothing to do with walking started showing up in humans. We can run in conditions no other animal can run. Humans are advanced endurance runners in the animal world, we’re evolved for walking, bipedalism, and running.

“The study notes that athletic humans can outrun horses and antelopes over extremely long distances. In parts of Africa this technique is still used today by hunters to exhaust their prey.” - Humans Were Born to Run, Fossil Study Suggests

Any good evolutionary biology book will smash that note home hard enough, down to tendons in the neck to maintain head alignment/posture when running. It’s a dumb arguement to say humans are naturally walkers, or naturally able to hold things in their hands, we can naturally be 5000 million different things, we are still runners and have been for the last 2 million years. You don’t out-run horses or other animals like that to spear them by hand or with a throwing spear, unless your part of a species that has adaptations for running. Humans have many adaptations for the purpose of running that serve no other purpose but than to be effective during a run.[/quote]

We may assume this or that about hunter-gatherers in the past,but what we know for sure is that hunters-gatherers of today (Brazil,Africa,Indonesia,…) are not super-athletic.They are very fit,but nothing special.
Of course,you get specialists like a gatherer that climbs the coconut tree for a living and so he is great at climbing,but not good at anything else.
A friend of mine with average genetics that works the office job and hits the gym in his spare time is about 200 lb. bodyweight,solid, squats 400 andd benches 350.I am sure no hunter-gatherer can outbench him or has a bigger arm.

The only thing I agree is the average hunter-gatherer is more athletic than average person in developed world.And thats due to most of the population being sedentary and out of survivial challenges.

39

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Which is why when you run 14 miles a day with 100meter sprint intervals without stopping to walk every-day like Jefferies, you end up super built up, super conditioned, because you are working a lot of physiological systems that don’t get worked outside of running, muscles, tendons and ligaments that “evolved” to allow you to run, that don’t get used in other tasks like strength-training or skill-work. Part of the reason conditioning work is so important for boxers.[/quote]

Conditioning work important for boxing,you said? :)))

Try doing 8 rounds of intense sparring.10 rounds on the heavy bag,3 rounds on pads and round that up with 10 more rounds of shadow boxing and rope jumping.Put everything you got in it.
I did it for years on almost daily basis.Only thing that toped that was Muay Thai practice where you need to kick up hard with bruised thighs and balance on one leg while almost exhausted! ;))

So you think running is hard? ;))

40

[quote]IronClaws wrote:
Which is why when you run 14 miles a day with 100meter sprint intervals without stopping to walk every-day like Jefferies, you end up super built up, super conditioned, because you are working a lot of physiological systems that don’t get worked outside of running, muscles, tendons and ligaments that “evolved” to allow you to run, that don’t get used in other tasks like strength-training or skill-work. Part of the reason conditioning work is so important for boxers.[/quote]

You keep trying to turn this back to marathon running, because that’s the only area your argument holds up. People that have to run long distances everday are pretty good at it? Really!? no way.

Again I reiterate: where are these AMAZING hunter gatherers who make Olympians and elite athletes in every other kind of performance field want to quit their athletic endeavors?

P.S boxing, kickboxing, pretty much any combat sport otherwise, is largely an anaerobic environment.