Tim Sylvia-World Class Striker?

Hi beebuddy,

Yeah, I agree with you, and I’m not saying that World class striking skills are required to do well in MMA, or even that someone who begins training in MMA at a later age would have the time to develop World Class striking skills (that is if they also wanted to develop their other arsenals).

My point was simply that Liddell is quite sloppy and would get beat by someone with truly world class skills provided that everything else was fairly even. Liddell hits hard, and therefore has got a chance against just about anyone.

In fact, if you watch Liddell’s fight against Jeremy Horn you will see that Horn is actually the better (more technically proficient) striker of the two. He simply lacks Chuck’s natural attributes. If Horn had Liddell’s attributes he would have easily won that fight.

So let me clarify what I mean by World Class striking SKILLS. What I meant was a World Class level of Skill, not just being able to hit hard. Yes, Liddell is effective, I never said he wasn’t, but that doesn’t necessarily equal skill. Just because you can knock a guy out with one good shot doesn’t mean that you are more skilled than them.

Good training,

Sentoguy

If your talking mma I think Tim Sylvia always has a punchers chance to catch someone even with a strong chin. The only problem is if Sylvia goes to the ground and is fighting off his back he is going to be in for a long ride.

I also think if Sylvia was in a boxing match he would probably get his ass handed to him by most guys.

Also one thing to point out about Chuck, who I like, is that he is an American kickboxing champ , much different from muay thai.

Ian the machine freeman must have the heaviest hands in the UFC?

see if you can find him on google.

I think the first thing we should do here is clarify “world class striker”, it’s getting thrown around a lot…but chuck liddel…evne though i don’t really like him, can hit good and hard. ASIDE from that…this world class thing, can someone give A NAME for world class striker…I’m thinking people in K-1, and MIKE TYSON lol.

I am glad that people really do not think Tim Sylvia is a “world class striker” as he is marketed. Though alot of people woth no experience tend to believe what the UFC announcers say. That is also a little bit disturbing.

[quote]DaMadMonk wrote:
Liddell and Franklin I would say are World Class strikers for MMA (never seen them in K-1 rules, would be interesting though).[/quote]

i strongly disagree. both throw loopy punches, franklin even has a backwards jab. both are champs in their division, & both get the job done everytime but im yet to be impressed by eithers striking. i will pick Tito against Chuck everytime because he punches straighter.

[quote]sjfou wrote:
i strongly disagree. both throw loopy punches, franklin even has a backwards jab. both are champs in their division, & both get the job done everytime but im yet to be impressed by eithers striking. i will pick Tito against Chuck everytime because he punches straighter.
[/quote]

Even when Chuck KOd Tito?

Sentoguy: We get what you’re saying, but saying, “if X met another guy who was equal in all things, but better in one thing…which means other guy wins” is a no-brainer.

There are a lot of things that make a puncher good other than technique! Chuck isn’t pretty to watch, but I’d argue that his goofy-ass style is precisely what makes him so effective. When someone goes straight down the middle (like Rampage did on 2003), he’s in trouble. Of course, Chuck also adapts, which is good.

The technique on the reverse punch that Liddell ko’d Tito with was perfect. I got off watching that punch. As soon as it hit I knew Ortiz was in trouble.

One of the greatest displays of striking skills by heavyweight boxers has to be Dave Tua vs Ike Ibeabuchi. The combos that Tua was popping off were educational. If you ever get a chance to watch that you won’t be disappointed.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
In fact, if you watch Liddell’s fight against Jeremy Horn you will see that Horn is actually the better (more technically proficient) striker of the two.

Sentoguy[/quote]

I agree with that statement. I consider Horn to be the most technically-beautiful striker in the UFC. When I think of “ideal” striking form and stance, Horn is the first person I think of.

[quote]sjfou wrote:

i strongly disagree. both throw loopy punches, franklin even has a backwards jab. both are champs in their division, & both get the job done everytime but im yet to be impressed by eithers striking. i will pick Tito against Chuck everytime because he punches straighter.
[/quote]

I cannot comprehend how you strongly disagree w/ Liddell & Franklin not being World Class strikers in MMA.

Chuck Liddell
Record 18 - 3 - 0 (Win - Loss - Draw)
Wins 11 (T)KOs (61.11%)
1 Submissions (5.56%)
6 Decisions (33.33%)

Rich Franklin
Record 20 - 1 - 0 (Win - Loss - Draw)
Wins 10 (T)KOs (50.00%)
9 Submissions (45.00%)
1 Decisions (5.00%)

In both cases, they have fought over 20 fights and their win percentage by k.o. is 50% or higher. This suggest that not only are they experienced, but consistent in what they do; K.O. people by striking.

You can pick Tito over Liddell because quote, “he punches straighter”. Nice. You believe that a straighter punch is a reason that one fighter would beat another? Are you kidding me? This is not some grading system in Karate for technique.

This is MMA. Liddell wins because he is smart and circles to get angles. Watch the last fight w/ Liddell and Courture. He created the angle and nailed Courture. Straight punches might look great but it won’t win you fights. Liddell knows this. You can’t tell me Liddell doesn’t know how to punch straight. He know’s how to knock guys out and so does Franklin.

Not impressed by them striking? Your either really tough to impress or some dude that doesn’t know better. I don’t think it is the former.

BTW Tito lost to Liddell by KO.
Oh You Didn’t Know? You Better Call Somebody!

Sorry, now that I look at the picture of Tito eating a right straight from Liddel it is obvious that his form is not straight as it can be. He’s not a World Class Striker and fails to impress me too.

Well as far as Tim Sylvia and every other MMA fighter goes…I have absolutely never seen one of them that consitutes a world class striker lol. Sorry…flame me on this. An example of a world class striker would be…muhammad ali lol…arturro gatti…oscar de la hoya…bernard hopkins…hell even enresto hoost…those men are world class strikers. There are world class grapplers in MMA…the reason is, most fights in MMA and street fights end up on the ground, so most of these fighter emphasize ground skills. Think of it this way…a fighter in MMA can survive with minimal striking skills but amazing ground skills…but a fighter in MMA seldom has longevity with minimal ground skills and amazing striking skills. This is not to say that a boxer in the octagon wouldnt lose…most probably would be submitted. But I feel its safe to say 90% of the fighters in MMA could not last at all in a boxing ring with what boxing considers a world class fighter…like the ones i mentioned.

Honestly Bob Sapp could beat Timmy. Tim Sylvia is one of the luckiest fighters of all time. He rarely gets a tough matchup (for his style).

I though do applaud him for his great win over Ricco.

Is he a world class striker? Hell no. Crocop is, Aerts is, Hoost is, LeBanner is, Hunt is also close, Sefo is. Compared to these guys Sylvia is a joke.

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Oh jesus, Liddel would smash any boxer.[/quote]

lol, ok. case in point: Chuck goes over to pride for a fight against Quentin Jackson. Chuck is the UFC champ, the “best,” whereas Jackson is simply a another Pride fighter, who, by the way, has had his ass handed to him multiple times by the Pride Middleweight champ, Wanderlei Silva.

Jackson mopped the floor with Chuck. Liddel was embarassed. He did prove he was tough, as he took plenty of good punches, yet he didn’t land a single good punch on Jackson, and Jackson was even playing Chuck’s game, straight boxing, with no kicks or groundplay, until the end, when he thankfully put Chuck out of his misery by going to the ground

I think Chuck’s corner threw in the towel.

As for Tim Sylvia, he’s a joke.

Striking in MMA is completely different than in boxing due to the smaller gloves as well as all the other factors.

I don’t think much of Sylvia but to think Liddell is not a top notch striker is silly.

Someone pointed out that Horn appears to be a more technically proficiant striker than Horn but I disagree.

Horn, with all his experience, is imitating a boxer with his stand up.

He may beat Chuck in boxing match with big gloves, but Chuck handed him his head in MMA.

I have seen tons of boxing matches and relatively few MMA matches but it is obvious to me that a tradional boxers defense with hands high and elbows tucked in will not get it done in MMA.

A looser style is required because they have to defend kicks and takedowns.

MMA striking is all about headhunting.
Get in range, hit hard and get out.

LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too…

BTW, i know this isnt boxing, i know striking is all about timing & angles & yes, Chuck did a perfect job on Randy. i have the utmost respect for anyone who gets in the cage, but i dont classify him as a “world-class striker”, however you pigeon-hole the term. time to start a new thread…

[quote]facko wrote:
Well as far as Tim Sylvia and every other MMA fighter goes…I have absolutely never seen one of them that consitutes a world class striker lol. [/quote]

Cro Cop, Mark Hunt, Jerome Le Banner. All k-1 guys who made a sucessful transition. All guys who trained stand up for 90% of their career.

I agree with DaMadMonk totally. You don’t only judge good strikers by how their hands look people. You judge it by their footwork. A ton of guys, even a deuce like me, look good hitting the bag and hit fairly hard. However, footwork sets up distance and timing. Also, sometimes an unorthodox looping left is what is called for in the moment. It’s why Chuck’s looping punches, LOOP IN AND KNOCK PEOPLE OUT. If Ali were around today and knew enough ground to survive and get to his feet where he could hit people, it sounds like a lot of people here would say he ain’t so good cause he keeps his hands low and he’s unorthodox. So what.
Striking is very attribute based, but those great strikers who possess great attributes are also very technical. They know orthodox and have found away to deal with it.

[quote]DaMadMonk wrote:
sjfou wrote:

i strongly disagree. both throw loopy punches, franklin even has a backwards jab. both are champs in their division, & both get the job done everytime but im yet to be impressed by eithers striking. i will pick Tito against Chuck everytime because he punches straighter.

I cannot comprehend how you strongly disagree w/ Liddell & Franklin not being World Class strikers in MMA.

Chuck Liddell
Record 18 - 3 - 0 (Win - Loss - Draw)
Wins 11 (T)KOs (61.11%)
1 Submissions (5.56%)
6 Decisions (33.33%)

Rich Franklin
Record 20 - 1 - 0 (Win - Loss - Draw)
Wins 10 (T)KOs (50.00%)
9 Submissions (45.00%)
1 Decisions (5.00%)

In both cases, they have fought over 20 fights and their win percentage by k.o. is 50% or higher. This suggest that not only are they experienced, but consistent in what they do; K.O. people by striking.

You can pick Tito over Liddell because quote, “he punches straighter”. Nice. You believe that a straighter punch is a reason that one fighter would beat another? Are you kidding me? This is not some grading system in Karate for technique.

This is MMA. Liddell wins because he is smart and circles to get angles. Watch the last fight w/ Liddell and Courture. He created the angle and nailed Courture. Straight punches might look great but it won’t win you fights. Liddell knows this. You can’t tell me Liddell doesn’t know how to punch straight. He know’s how to knock guys out and so does Franklin.

Not impressed by them striking? Your either really tough to impress or some dude that doesn’t know better. I don’t think it is the former.

BTW Tito lost to Liddell by KO.
Oh You Didn’t Know? You Better Call Somebody!

Sorry, now that I look at the picture of Tito eating a right straight from Liddel it is obvious that his form is not straight as it can be. He’s not a World Class Striker and fails to impress me too.[/quote]

YES Exactly. I’ve sparred with guys and people say, you looked pretty good. Meanwhile I ‘landed’ a lot of grazing shots and nicks and they landed SOLID bombs and shots I didn’t see coming.
To watch a tape of that even I thought I didn’t look too bad. But let me tell you, I was totally out classed and knew it in the ring. The solid head and body shots are not easily discerned from the nicks and essentially ineffective grazing shots by the spectator. Many great strikers look like they’re getting hit and really they are just hanging out in the pocket waiting for you to think you’re doing good imitating a boxer. Next thing you know you’re telling people, “I’m okay, I’m okay, why are you stepping in?”

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Striking in MMA is completely different than in boxing due to the smaller gloves as well as all the other factors.

I don’t think much of Sylvia but to think Liddell is not a top notch striker is silly.

Someone pointed out that Horn appears to be a more technically proficiant striker than Horn but I disagree.

Horn, with all his experience, is imitating a boxer with his stand up.

He may beat Chuck in boxing match with big gloves, but Chuck handed him his head in MMA.

I have seen tons of boxing matches and relatively few MMA matches but it is obvious to me that a tradional boxers defense with hands high and elbows tucked in will not get it done in MMA.

A looser style is required because they have to defend kicks and takedowns.

MMA striking is all about headhunting.
Get in range, hit hard and get out.

[/quote]

[quote]sjfou wrote:
LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too… [/quote]

And since then he has developed…It’s what you’ve done lately. he’s a good striker. Look what Jackson and Couture have done lately.