Tim and Todd Debate Deadlifts

Personally, my back is never sore after deadlifting. My hamstrings and glutes always are. All of the muscles responsible for scapular retraction get pretty torn up as well.

EMG testing can only measure superficial muscle activity so I don’t know if that is very reliable in terms of figuring out what is working more while performing a heavy pull.

I would argue that very good deadlifters don’t actually use their erctors to pick the weight up. I was standing about 5 feet away when Bolton did his 950 something raw deadlift. His back stayed neutral during the entire lift. He rocked his hips down several times to develop tension in his hamstrings, pulled the slack out of the bar, and then violently threw his hips forward. I think this is common with most good deadlifters.

The bigger issue here might be athletes/lifters inability to activate their hamstrings and glutes. Developing tension before the actual pull is key to getting the muscles of the legs and hips maximally involved in the pull. Very rarely do I see people doing this.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:
Personally, my back is never sore after deadlifting. My hamstrings and glutes always are. All of the muscles responsible for scapular retraction get pretty torn up as well.[/quote]

Granted, I don’t even deadlift 75% of what you do, but I get the same retractor and glute soreness, but nothing in the hamstrings. My low back feels neutral on good days, but sore if I have a day full of grinders. I think oly shoes have actually helped alleviate that, though.

Very true. It’s also limited in that it’s expressed as a % of max, so your relative strength in the other muscles can throw off the big picture. I think it gives us an idea of what’s going on, though no smoking gun by any means.

Agreed on Bolton. When I mentioned “ideals,” he practices what everyone preaches and just so happens to be one of the strongest DLers of all time. However, to my eye Benny’s 1015 looks to be mostly erector dominant, and KK is definitely an all-back guy. I might be watching too much WSM, otherwise. Those guys are notorious for stiff-legging huge DLs (Felix and Poundstone come to mind).

Looking at it biomechanically, you’d have to balance two opposing torques to maintain ideal technique. The bar torques forward from gravity and knee extension (in practice), and back from hip and back extension, I would think. As you said, not engaging the hamstrings properly leaves the erectors to do most of the work until the glutes are in a position to contribute meaningfully. I think that’s the difference between the reality for many lifters and the ideal.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

I would argue that very good deadlifters don’t actually use their erctors to pick the weight up. I was standing about 5 feet away when Bolton did his 950 something raw deadlift. His back stayed neutral during the entire lift. He rocked his hips down several times to develop tension in his hamstrings, pulled the slack out of the bar, and then violently threw his hips forward. I think this is common with most good deadlifters.

[/quote]

I hear what you are saying in that the goal is there should not be much concentric erector contractions when doing a deadlift, but to say they don’t “use” their erectors isn’t really accurate. Look at your own profile picture, it should be pretty clear from the picture that it is pretty much all erectors that will finish that lift, of course a powerful hip thrust will help too. If you envision a person as a puppet and you are the puppeteer, if you are going to make somebody deadlift you would pull on the string that inserts on their upper back, it would be very difficult to make the puppet stand up by pulling on the glutes and hamstrings (refer to my picture in the original article). Again it goes back to the ab wheel example, the goal is to keep the body stable in an ab wheel but that doesn’t mean that abs are not working, they are working super hard to keep that position.

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

I would argue that very good deadlifters don’t actually use their erctors to pick the weight up. I was standing about 5 feet away when Bolton did his 950 something raw deadlift. His back stayed neutral during the entire lift. He rocked his hips down several times to develop tension in his hamstrings, pulled the slack out of the bar, and then violently threw his hips forward. I think this is common with most good deadlifters.

[/quote]

I hear what you are saying in that the goal is there should not be much concentric erector contractions when doing a deadlift, but to say they don’t “use” their erectors isn’t really accurate. Look at your own profile picture, it should be pretty clear from the picture that it is pretty much all erectors that will finish that lift, of course a powerful hip thrust will help too. If you envision a person as a puppet and you are the puppeteer, if you are going to make somebody deadlift you would pull on the string that inserts on their upper back, it would be very difficult to make the puppet stand up by pulling on the glutes and hamstrings (refer to my picture in the original article). Again it goes back to the ab wheel example, the goal is to keep the body stable in an ab wheel but that doesn’t mean that abs are not working, they are working super hard to keep that position. [/quote]

Yes you are right. And “use” was a poor word selection. I should have said “don’t actively engage the erectors” like they would their hips, glutes, hamstrings, and upper back.

I understand your example of the puppet strings but that makes the movement seem a lot less complicated than it actually is. When I look at it, it seems more like a see-saw action between the hips and upper back. Hips go forward, upper back retracts and moves back to align with the hips. Then if this is the case, the erctors/lower back become the fulcrom of the movement. A fulcrum by definition is the support point of two levers. Much like a squat, everything between the hips and upper back become primarily responsible for transfering the forces between the two points. See what I am saying? Thinking of it this way makes it almost impossible for a “good” deadlift to use the erectors as a prime mover.

I am definitely not trying to start an arguement or anything and I really enjoyed your article. I just look at things from different perspectives than most lifters and sometimes that really pisses people off. haha.

[quote]StormTheBeach wrote:

I understand your example of the puppet strings but that makes the movement seem a lot less complicated than it actually is. When I look at it, it seems more like a see-saw action between the hips and upper back. Hips go forward, upper back retracts and moves back to align with the hips. Then if this is the case, the erctors/lower back become the fulcrom of the movement. A fulcrum by definition is the support point of two levers. Much like a squat, everything between the hips and upper back become primarily responsible for transfering the forces between the two points. See what I am saying? Thinking of it this way makes it almost impossible for a “good” deadlift to use the erectors as a prime mover.

I am definitely not trying to start an arguement or anything and I really enjoyed your article. I just look at things from different perspectives than most lifters and sometimes that really pisses people off. haha.[/quote]

Storm - I hear you, and it is often a good idea not to look things the same way everybody else does, much less likely to be a lemming that way. As a fellow lifter I have a lot of respect for you. I like your idea of looking at it like a lever system and a seesaw. Fulcrums in the body have to be joints, in this case the hips. The lever is the rigid body, the trunk, and the muscle force is the erectors acting at the top of the lever, and the glutes and hamstrings acting at the bottom. The erectors are pulling it up and back, the glutes and hams pulling it down and in, so they are collectively working together to rotate the lever around the fulcrum.

Tim, first I want to say thanks for taking the time to set up this forum so we can all share our thoughts and learn more about the deadlift. It also speaks volumes about you as a coach that you have no problem sitting down and debating over material that you have published.

I do agree that all of those movements are involved in a deadlift, just obviously during different portions of the lift.

Trunk and Spine Extension: I donâ??t know if these two actions can be separated, and I donâ??t think they occur past the set-up phase of the lift. If the lumbar spine extends at all during the lift it is a miniscule amount. This also has to be considered segmentally, because there are different actions at the cervical, thoracic and lumbar sections of the spine. But, of course the erector spinae (longissimus, iliocostalis, spinalis) as well as the transversospinal muscles such as the multifidi are involved in spinal and trunk extension. The lats, rhomboids and traps also aid the spinal erectors in generating the initial spinal extension during set-up and help to finish the pull.

Hip Extension: I believe that this is the predominant movement of the deadlift. While the deadlift is a full-body lift, it is a hip dominant pattern. The movement is primarily generated by the glutes and hamstrings with the erector spinae acting as an assist.

Knee Extension: This is the initial movement of the deadlift and is generated predominantly by the quads.

My main point of contention is that the spinal erectors are the agonists of the deadlift. Do I disagree with the fact that they are extremely active throughout the lift? Hell no. That being said, I donâ??t believe they are the driving force behind the deadlift.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this after I approached you and I also had a conversation with Smitty from the Diesel Crew, I have the privilege of training with him on Sundays and we happened to be deadlifting, but the prime mover changes throughout the course of the deadlift. Initially, the agonists are the quads because they are generating the force to get the weight moving off of the ground, but as the joint angle and angular velocity changes so does the prime mover. Once the knees extend past a certain point, the glutes and hamstrings become the prime movers to create the hip extension to lock out the weight. Although the back is very active throughout the lift it is so the hips can do their job. Like I stated above, there is very little extension in the lumbar spine throughout the lift and most of it is to maintain the neutral spine position.

In the thoracic spine there is virtually no extension during the lift. There may be some at during the final pull, but most if that is generated by a powerful lat contraction; further leading me to believe that the spinal erectors are not the prime mover or agonist.

Iâ??ll use a quote from Dr. Stuart McGill. If there is a better authority on training the back and its function during movement I would love to meet him. Here goes:

â??Power (force times velocity) should come from the hips. The risk rises when power is developed in the spine. The implication is that when high spine torques are developed, the velocity of spine motion be low. Conversely, high spine velocity is safe only when the torques are low. Weightlifters develop enormous hip power but virtually no spine power (high force and low velocity) because the spine is locked into a static position while the high velocity angular motion is provided by the hips.â??

While much of that quote is devoted to Olympic lifting, all Oly lifts start with a deadlift. And while the velocity of a deadlift, especially a maximal effort, is much less than Olympic lifts, there is still a great amount of torque. Not to mention one of the most common movement distortions seen today involves over-active spinal erectors and weak or inhibited glutes. So, training the erector spinae to be the prime movers would seem like a mistake.

Considering all of this, it seems very logical to believe that while there are multiple prime movers during the deadlift the spinal erectors arenâ??t one of them.

Your thoughts?

Reference
McGill, S. (2009). Ultimate back fitness and performance: fourth edition. Waterloo: Backfitpro Inc.

Todd - thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Trunk extension is the movement of the trunk as a whole, as would take place in a hyperextension or a good morning. Spine extension is the extension of the spine, flexion of the spine would be seen in the Cat position in yoga, extension of the spine would be seen in the dog position. Spinal extension would be trained with a lower back machine or by doing supermans. It is fully possible, and recommended, to have a large amount of trunk extension while keeping the spine in extension at the same time. The only way there would be no trunk extension is if the lifter deadlifted and maintained a completely vertical trunk position, which of course would be impossible to do.

The erectors run the full length of the spine, so don’t just look at what is happening at the lumbar region. In my profile pic, and almost everybody’s that takes a picture of a deadlift in that position, the knees and hips are almost fully extended but there is much trunk extension left to occur, and the erectors are the main muscle that produces that movement.

I agree that the involvement of the muscles does change during the ROM but the most important muscle in the deadlift, in my opinion, is the erectors and I would classify it is trunk dominant, not hip dominant (which is what I would classify a squat as).

I certainly like McGill, but I will raise you a Louie Simmons. Here are two direct quotes from him regarding erector involvement in the deadlift:

“Squatting with a bar held in various ways will place the stress on the erectors, hips, and glutes; the primary muscles that deadlift.”

“…If the lower back takes the major role in deadlifting, which is most often the case,…”

So to summarize, I am asking you to re-examine your position on trunk extension and spinal extension. The goal is to have to no spinal extension although my measurements showed it does happen. However trunk extension is a huge part of the deadlift and that has to be produced by something, I argue it is erectors given that action is their primary function and their angle of pull is so much better to produce that action than the glutes or hams.

Thoughts on that aspect of it?

Tim,

You raise some great points. I?ve examined your profile pic quite a few times, and not just because I think you?re handsome ;). Your hips and knees are definitely way ahead of your trunk during that lift. Of course, during a maximal deadlift attempt things aren?t going to be perfect and anyone will do what they have to do to finish a rep. I think a lot of that also has to do with the lifter and their style of pulling, but I?ll stick to spinal extension and trunk extension.

Maybe my folly is separating trunk extension from hip extension while deadlifting. I don?t have a problem admitting when I am wrong and maybe my view of the deadlift as a hip dominant pattern skewed my opinion on trunk extension. However, I don?t think that hip and trunk extension should be separated when deadlifting. I?ll use an example of cues I use for myself and my clients. When pulling, I always train to extend my knees, hips and trunk in unison. If the trunk is locked and stable, then the pull is coming from the glutes and the hamstrings.

I?ll never disagree with you about how pivotal a strong lower back and erectors are for producing a big deadlift number. As your quote from Louie states the hips, erectors and glutes are all important in deadlfting, but it doesn?t state in what proportion.

Also, I replicated your measurements that you said prove that spinal erectors concentrically contract. I did it under four different conditions: standing unloaded, standing loaded, deadlift start position unloaded and deadlift start position loaded. My findings were interesting. Whether I was loaded or not in the standing position my spine was 2? shorter than it was when I was in the bent position (also the same loaded and unloaded). The spine is going to appear shorter simply because of gravity?s load on the body, not necessarily because the erectors are contracting to move weight.

In summary, I am sorry for the confusion on trunk extension, but I think it is supposed to happen in unison with hip extension making it more about stability at the trunk. Also, if you get behind in a lift of course you are going to do whatever you have to in order to finish a lift, but that doesn?t mean that it is typical or that you should train for it. That?s not a slight on you; I have definitely been there myself.

[quote]Todd Bumgardner, MS wrote:

I?ll never disagree with you about how pivotal a strong lower back and erectors are for producing a big deadlift number. As your quote from Louie states the hips, erectors and glutes are all important in deadlfting, but it doesn?t state in what proportion. [/quote]

Todd, thanks for the response. The second quote did specifically mention that the lower back usually takes the primary role in a deadlift.

[quote]Todd Bumgardner, MS wrote:
Also, I replicated your measurements that you said prove that spinal erectors concentrically contract. I did it under four different conditions: standing unloaded, standing loaded, deadlift start position unloaded and deadlift start position loaded. My findings were interesting. Whether I was loaded or not in the standing position my spine was 2? shorter than it was when I was in the bent position (also the same loaded and unloaded). The spine is going to appear shorter simply because of gravity?s load on the body, not necessarily because the erectors are contracting to move weight.[/quote]

The only way your spine is losing 2 inches in length from gravity is if gravity works on it for 70 years :slight_smile: The reason your spine was 2 inches shorter was because you were bent over, which automatically involves trunk flexion and almost always slight spinal flexion. If you fully want to do test this, do these things. First, lay down on your stomach and assume a finished deadlift position with your trunk (which is easier said than done as you tend to round forward). Have a partner who doesn’t mind getting up close and personal with you mark a spot right above your tailbone and right at C7. Have them measure that spot with you laying down and then repeat the measurement standing up, it should be the same, you might possibly lose a half an inch max. If your example would be true, I would be 5’10 standing up and 6’ laying down but I think we know that is not the case. The second thing to do is simply tape down a tape measure (the flexible kind) to your spine at the same spots, start off standing up. Try to move around (I actually did this and looked like a weirdo for the last hour). It is impossible to do almost any bending forward at all with out ripping the tape off. The spine moves, flexes, more than many people think.

[quote]Todd Bumgardner, MS wrote:
In summary, I am sorry for the confusion on trunk extension, but I think it is supposed to happen in unison with hip extension making it more about stability at the trunk. Also, if you get behind in a lift of course you are going to do whatever you have to in order to finish a lift, but that doesn?t mean that it is typical or that you should train for it. That?s not a slight on you; I have definitely been there myself.
[/quote]

I agree the goal is a near simultaneous lockout, but I feel as though you are down playing trunk extension. It is interesting that you looked at my profile pic and thought there was an error in the form or that the weight got me out the groove, I would not agree with that. One thing I like about that pic, or of one like StormtheBeach’s profile pic, is that I think one familiar with the deadlift can look it and know that specific deadlift will be successfully locked out, even though there is a ways to go in the ROM. The goal is to keep the bar under the spine of the scapula for as long as possible, if you can do that and maintain an arch in your back you are golden. Once the bar clears the knees then you have that trunk extension coupled with a strong hip thrust to finish the lift. I am attaching a pic of a lifter simply doing 135 to show what I feel is pretty good position but also shows that a lot of trunk extension will take place in all deadlifts, personally I would try to mimic that form in my pic in all lifts. If you stand with your back/butt to a wall and get in deadlift position and then extend the knee and hip, I think you see that you are still very far bent over, most people probably start with about a 70 degree forward bend. It will take a lot of muscular work to get the trunk vertical and I feel that work is performed primarily by the erectors.

Another simple question to ask yourself is why are a deadlift suit and a squat suit different if the glutes/hips are the key? If that was the case one suit should work great for both lifts. The squat suit gives great support to the hips area but generally does diddly for a deadlift. The deadlift suit is all about supporting the trunk but few will wear one during a squat.

Hope that helps explain my thoughts, take it easy,
Tim

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Another simple question to ask yourself is why are a deadlift suit and a squat suit different if the glutes/hips are the key? If that was the case one suit should work great for both lifts. The squat suit gives great support to the hips area but generally does diddly for a deadlift. The deadlift suit is all about supporting the trunk but few will wear one during a squat.
[/quote]

I’m new to gear, but this doesn’t really make that much sense to me. The suits are built very similarly, but one is just mostly tighter, because otherwise you could never get to the bar for a deadlift. Is that not correct? Are deadlift suits built to support the spine more with less support on the hips?

The major difference being (other than the angle of the legs) that the weight pushes you down in a squat and you just hold the groove on the way down and then squat up, but for a deadlift you’d have to pull yourself into position really difficult when I have tried it with the straps anywhere close to as tight as when I squat. Interestingly, what I can’t do when I try this is get my back set!

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Another simple question to ask yourself is why are a deadlift suit and a squat suit different if the glutes/hips are the key? If that was the case one suit should work great for both lifts. The squat suit gives great support to the hips area but generally does diddly for a deadlift. The deadlift suit is all about supporting the trunk but few will wear one during a squat.
[/quote]

I’m new to gear, but this doesn’t really make that much sense to me. The suits are built very similarly, but one is just mostly tighter, because otherwise you could never get to the bar for a deadlift. Is that not correct? Are deadlift suits built to support the spine more with less support on the hips?

The major difference being (other than the angle of the legs) that the weight pushes you down in a squat and you just hold the groove on the way down and then squat up, but for a deadlift you’d have to pull yourself into position really difficult when I have tried it with the straps anywhere close to as tight as when I squat. Interestingly, what I can’t do when I try this is get my back set![/quote]

Don’t really want to pick a dog in this fight but as far as single ply gear goes, a squat suit should look long and narrow when set next to a DL suit which should be wider and shorter. Hips tight and straps snug vs. straps tight and hips snug.

This is what most people fail to grasp when setting up a single ply suit for the DL. To get much out of it you have to be able to tolerate very tight straps, but the hips can’t be overly tight or you will struggle getting to the bar, in particular if you pull conventional. Additionally, to maximize leverage the seams on the straps need to be as far forward of the traps as possible.

For a sumo puller you get the combined advantage of pop from the floor and a greater ability to hold position. but for a conventional puller you get a little pop but if you set the straps right you have a much better ability to hold position on a limit pull.

We work real hard with sumo pullers to gradually ease them into a tighter hips but start them out with tight straps and work from that point. Most convo pullers can’t tolerate both.

BTW, this isn’t some profound thing I came up with(don’t claim origination of the concept) but rather years and years of sitting at the feet of very accomplished lifters learning what they do and more years and years of tweaking it and seeing it work.

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Are deadlift suits built to support the spine more with less support on the hips?

[/quote]

Jakerz96 - you asked a good question and your instinct was correct, the suits look a little alike in that they both resemble a singlet, but they are built very different. As AP pointed out below, a squat suit will be very tight to put on over the hips, the straps are usually not as hard to get on. A deadlift suit will be looser in the fight but much tighter over the torso and the straps will be hard to get on. This is because as you guess the deadlift suit has to support the spine more, the squat suit has to give more support to the hips.

APWSearch - good post about the suits, thanks

[quote]apwsearch wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
Another simple question to ask yourself is why are a deadlift suit and a squat suit different if the glutes/hips are the key? If that was the case one suit should work great for both lifts. The squat suit gives great support to the hips area but generally does diddly for a deadlift. The deadlift suit is all about supporting the trunk but few will wear one during a squat.
[/quote]

I’m new to gear, but this doesn’t really make that much sense to me. The suits are built very similarly, but one is just mostly tighter, because otherwise you could never get to the bar for a deadlift. Is that not correct? Are deadlift suits built to support the spine more with less support on the hips?

The major difference being (other than the angle of the legs) that the weight pushes you down in a squat and you just hold the groove on the way down and then squat up, but for a deadlift you’d have to pull yourself into position really difficult when I have tried it with the straps anywhere close to as tight as when I squat. Interestingly, what I can’t do when I try this is get my back set![/quote]

Don’t really want to pick a dog in this fight but as far as single ply gear goes, a squat suit should look long and narrow when set next to a DL suit which should be wider and shorter. Hips tight and straps snug vs. straps tight and hips snug.

This is what most people fail to grasp when setting up a single ply suit for the DL. To get much out of it you have to be able to tolerate very tight straps, but the hips can’t be overly tight or you will struggle getting to the bar, in particular if you pull conventional. Additionally, to maximize leverage the seams on the straps need to be as far forward of the traps as possible.

For a sumo puller you get the combined advantage of pop from the floor and a greater ability to hold position. but for a conventional puller you get a little pop but if you set the straps right you have a much better ability to hold position on a limit pull.

We work real hard with sumo pullers to gradually ease them into a tighter hips but start them out with tight straps and work from that point. Most convo pullers can’t tolerate both.

BTW, this isn’t some profound thing I came up with(don’t claim origination of the concept) but rather years and years of sitting at the feet of very accomplished lifters learning what they do and more years and years of tweaking it and seeing it work.[/quote]
Thanks, that was very informative.

Tim,

The spine does definitely flex in the down position and is back in the neutral position or slightly extended while standing, but that doesn?t mean that it is because of an extreme concentric contraction. Of course, my statement on gravity may have been a bit short sited. The eccentric contraction to decelerate flexion is much stronger than any concentric contraction used to extend back into the standing position if the core is braced and the hips are allowed to do the work.

I guess the root of our disagreement comes from our take on form, as I don?t believe the guy you chose for the picture is in great position. It seems as though his hips and knees are far too close to extension in relation to his trunk. He is also extending his cervical spine pretty severely, which is something that I coach against. I found this video of Tony Gentilcore deadlifting and it is much closer to what I see as ideal conventional deadlift form. The trunk, the hips and the knees extend simultaneously rather than the hips and the knees extending before the trunk.

Also, squat suits and deadlift suits are definitely designed differently and don?t carry over, but not necessarily because it?s all about the hips. I agree that the deadlift suit is about aiding the trunk, but not because it is the prime mover but because it can be the weakest link. If the weakest link is braced then the strongest links can do the work. I see the deadlift suit as to keep good position so that the glutes and hamstrings can do their job.

You?ve definitely sparked me to delve into this even deeper, so thanks for that, Tim. I?m also going to consider every point you?ve made with much more thought. You might eventually win me over.
Thanks for your time, man.
Todd

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Thanks, that was very informative.[/quote]

No problem. I figured I would get panned because I don’t talk comp numbers openly on the forum and it seems the general thought process is stronger=right but I have trained with lots of guys much stronger than I that I have helped quite a bit. It’s kind of like do you really think the soviet coaches are stronger than the lifters they coach? Not likely.

For the record, I consider my best pull to be 270K at 181 when I was in my early 20’s. This was done in a very tight z-suit which frankly I got good weight out of as a sumo puller because of the reasons stated above. I had 272.5 in my hands that day but it slipped down my hand on the right side at lockout and I couldn’t finish my hips.

Todd - thanks for the post. The computer I am on at the moment does not play that video but I think I have seen it before. I hear you in general and don’t think we are super far off, I agree the erectors likely are the weak link which to me does not exclude them from being the agonist (indeed that normally is the case, the agonist is the weak link) in the exercise, the biceps are the weak link in a bicep curl, meaning if that muscle was stronger your lift would go up.

For me the biggest take home points are always what to do in the gym. If you have no leg drive work those legs more, if you fail above your knees then the trunk dominant exercises like RDL’s, GM’s, Rack Pulls, Stiff DL’s, band pulls are likely to help you out.

Thanks for the debate and good luck with your lifting, hopefully this helps both of us net bigger deads in the future.

Tim

APW - thanks for the insight, nice job on that pull especially at that bodyweight. The old Z suits were classic, my best friend begged me to cut his off of him once we got it on the first time, I obviously laughed at him writhing around on the floor (he had extra big thighs) but he adapted. Sorry you could not lock that PR out, that is frustrating. Take it easy - Tim

Tim,

I couldn’t agree more about finding what your weak link is and improving that. This has been a fun first debate for me. Thanks a lot, man. I’ll probably be in Virginia soon, hopefully I can stop in and lift with you guys.

[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
APW - thanks for the insight, nice job on that pull especially at that bodyweight. The old Z suits were classic, my best friend begged me to cut his off of him once we got it on the first time, I obviously laughed at him writhing around on the floor (he had extra big thighs) but he adapted. Sorry you could not lock that PR out, that is frustrating. Take it easy - Tim[/quote]

Thanks, man. That’s why I consider it my best as it is the most I have pulled on ratio.

I really liked the z-suit. It just had to be worn so damn tight to make it work and keeping those legs locked in was such a huge issue. They could be quite painful…heh heh. Although I will state that when wraps started to evolve, the first time I had a pair of THP’s really cranked down on me I wanted to crawl into a corner and sob. I didn’t see how I could possibly move and the pain was incredible.

You’re no slouch yourself, my friend. Thanks to both of you for the interesting debate.

I was going to bring up the fact that with a new lifter I am much more interested in building what I call arch awareness and static strength. In other words, we use the 45 degree hyper set just below the hips and do an arched movement which over time teaches them to tell when they are flattening out, builds arched range of motion, which often times in my experience can be very poor in a new lifter and they literally flatten out almost immediately on the descent, and builds that static strength.

Having said that, watching a video of Anello pull tilts this conversation somewhat and makes me realize that body type has a lot to do with how much contraction you are going to have to deal with. I have a real young guy who I picked up as a training partner at the gym I am at and at first when he pulled, his low back looked awful. Gradually, we have worked him into more flexibility and greater static strength but I have basically come to the conclusion that due to the way he is built he will have to rely on erector strength more than some. The key was getting him to a point where he holds position and is no longer rounding.

Obviously, teaching him to engage his lats properly and bringing up his upper back mass and strength has helped alot (he has thickend up quite a bit and really put an emphasis on the band and face pulls on his own) but he is longer in the torso with short legs and his contractile strength is always going to be an issue for him.