Todd Bumgardener contacted me about the recent deadlift article. He said he had a different take on things and asked me if I would like to discuss the issue more. I thought that would be fine and we decided to do this over the forums so the reader could have the potential benefit of observing and maybe learning something. I always feel that a good debate either strengthens your position or makes your realize your position is weaker than you think, either way you normally end up learning something and personally my goal is to know the truth, not necessarily be right. Todd and I are friends so it is unlikely that this will deteriorate into a massive rumble, but you never know ;).
Since I wrote the article, and since I am egotistical and a control freak, I will get the process started. Other T-Nation members and authors can chime in, we just ask that you keep it professional and respectful. Disagreeing with somebody doesn’t mean they are an idiot or you hate them.
Todd, first let’s see if we are in agreement on the basics, we might be closer in thought than we realize and we may just have different operation definitions for some terms.
I am going to start by listing the main movements that I think are occurring in the conventional deadlift. Tell me if you are agree or not. Then list the muscles you feel that are producing those movements.
Movements in a Deadlift (not necessarily in order of importance):
Trunk Extension
Spine Extension
Hip Extension
Knee Extension
Secondly, were there particular points in the article you either disagreed with or had comments about?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
This’ll be good. I have one question. Do you (or anyone else) think that lever lengths have any major effect on the magnitude of the involvement of the erectors in relation to the rest of the posterior chain?
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
This’ll be good. I have one question. Do you (or anyone else) think that lever lengths have any major effect on the magnitude of the involvement of the erectors in relation to the rest of the posterior chain?[/quote]
Spartee - a short answer - lever lengths definitely have an effect on how efficient the erectors are (longer torso will generally be better) but I think no matter what your size or build the erectors will always be hugely important in a deadlift
What do you weight’s carryover is to the deadlift? It seems like it is often more forgiving of less mass than say the bench and squat. I know it varies and levers are huge in the deadlift as well as fatique levels. It just seems like if you look hard enough you’ll see multitudes of lighter guys putting up very respectable numbers while those findings for the bench tend to be significantly slimmer. Not to say there aren’t any smaller dudes benching a lot of weight because there are.
This has potential of win.
For those that do no know what article said debate is about, here it is for your reading perusal: Get It Right: The Deadlift
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
What do you weight’s carryover is to the deadlift? It seems like it is often more forgiving of less mass than say the bench and squat. I know it varies and levers are huge in the deadlift as well as fatique levels. It just seems like if you look hard enough you’ll see multitudes of lighter guys putting up very respectable numbers while those findings for the bench tend to be significantly slimmer. Not to say there aren’t any smaller dudes benching a lot of weight because there are.[/quote]
I think bodyweight affects the deadlift the least and sometimes being big, especially in the gut, can mess up the start position, I also think bigger guys have a harder time arching at the bottom.
Todd said he would respond tonight or tomorrow
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
Nabbed this from wikipedia: Agonist is a classification used to describe a muscle that causes specific movement or possibly several movements to occur through the process of its own contraction. This is typically a term designated for skeletal muscles. Agonists are also referred to, interchangeably, as “prime movers” since they are the muscles being considered that are primarily responsible for generating a specific movement.
So, are the erectors the “prime movers” in a deadlift? I don’t know… But my first thought is no they aren’t and that instead the hip extensors (glutes and hams) are. However, I would say that the erectors are often the limiting factor in a conventional deadlift and thus training should involve strengthening them.
I sort of thought that was the point of your article Tim. Is that what you meant to get at?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
Nabbed this from wikipedia: Agonist is a classification used to describe a muscle that causes specific movement or possibly several movements to occur through the process of its own contraction. This is typically a term designated for skeletal muscles. Agonists are also referred to, interchangeably, as “prime movers” since they are the muscles being considered that are primarily responsible for generating a specific movement.
So, are the erectors the “prime movers” in a deadlift? I don’t know… But my first thought is no they aren’t and that instead the hip extensors (glutes and hams) are. However, I would say that the erectors are often the limiting factor in a conventional deadlift and thus training should involve strengthening them.
I sort of thought that was the point of your article Tim. Is that what you meant to get at?[/quote]
What’s your take on people whose limiting factor isn’t the lower back? What do you usually do differently? Are they just training their erectors more effeciently than others or is it something else?
Tim what does your deadlift training look like?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
Nabbed this from wikipedia: Agonist is a classification used to describe a muscle that causes specific movement or possibly several movements to occur through the process of its own contraction. This is typically a term designated for skeletal muscles. Agonists are also referred to, interchangeably, as “prime movers” since they are the muscles being considered that are primarily responsible for generating a specific movement.
So, are the erectors the “prime movers” in a deadlift? I don’t know… But my first thought is no they aren’t and that instead the hip extensors (glutes and hams) are. However, I would say that the erectors are often the limiting factor in a conventional deadlift and thus training should involve strengthening them.
I sort of thought that was the point of your article Tim. Is that what you meant to get at?[/quote]
I would say there is considerable trunk extension in a deadlift, look at my own profile picture. My knees and hips are essentially finished extending, but the trunk still has a fair amount of movement left. But yes I think the erectors are likely the limiting factor and strengthening them will do the most to improve your deadlift.
I can’t wait for other authors to chime in on this debate and bring some interesting points up.
Me, I won’t be able to contribute much to the debate given that up until recently I thought that the primary agonist for the deadlift are biceps brachialis and gastrocnemius.
Vadim
PS In general I’m just happy to be able to deadlift and put some numbers up on the board.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
Nabbed this from wikipedia: Agonist is a classification used to describe a muscle that causes specific movement or possibly several movements to occur through the process of its own contraction. This is typically a term designated for skeletal muscles. Agonists are also referred to, interchangeably, as “prime movers” since they are the muscles being considered that are primarily responsible for generating a specific movement.
So, are the erectors the “prime movers” in a deadlift? I don’t know… But my first thought is no they aren’t and that instead the hip extensors (glutes and hams) are. However, I would say that the erectors are often the limiting factor in a conventional deadlift and thus training should involve strengthening them.
I sort of thought that was the point of your article Tim. Is that what you meant to get at?[/quote]
What’s your take on people whose limiting factor isn’t the lower back? What do you usually do differently? Are they just training their erectors more effeciently than others or is it something else?[/quote]
For me it is actually the upper-back that is limiting, so I’m not quite sure how to answer this. Maybe it is just that most people doing anything athletic have far stronger legs than backs (relatively speaking for the deadlift) due to most athletic movements being unilateral and the back gets strong enough for the output of one leg but not two. Just a thought.
[quote]spar4tee wrote:
Tim what does your deadlift training look like?[/quote]
It varies a lot, I am getting ready to do a Westside cycle for the lower body right now which has one doing heavy pulls once every three weeks. I have also followed some of the deadlift routines I have posted as articles, which are once a week. I would normally range in between that frequency
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
[/quote]
I would say there is considerable trunk extension in a deadlift, look at my own profile picture. My knees and hips are essentially finished extending, but the trunk still has a fair amount of movement left. [/quote]
Point taken, but let’s say you get the erectors stronger (stronger than everything else) such that they aren’t limiting. Then is all the trunk extension going to happen? I’m thinking that instead the erectors would just be doing anti-flexion and then a little extension at the end.
In light of what you said though. Do you think we should train the deadlift more by isolating trunk extension?
Something like arch back good mornings and maybe rounded RDLs?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
[/quote]
I would say there is considerable trunk extension in a deadlift, look at my own profile picture. My knees and hips are essentially finished extending, but the trunk still has a fair amount of movement left. [/quote]
Point taken, but let’s say you get the erectors stronger (stronger than everything else) such that they aren’t limiting. Then is all the trunk extension going to happen? I’m thinking that instead the erectors would just be doing anti-flexion and then a little extension at the end.
In light of what you said though. Do you think we should train the deadlift more by isolating trunk extension?
Something like arch back good mornings and maybe rounded RDLs?[/quote]
OK so, I’m coming around to this idea more… I just watched Konstantin, Benedikt, Andy, and Ed’s deadlifts and some have more back extension than others, but it’s there in all of them and it is always the last 6 inches or so of bar movement. Konstantin has way more trunk extension than the others (mostly due to his form and set-up). So, my question is what is ultimately better KK’s set-up or limited flexion at set-up? I ask because I have been playing with a rounded upper back upon switching to conventional pulling.
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
He said he had a different take on things and asked me if I would like to discuss the issue more.[/quote]
Can’t we just do this the old fashioned way and just assume the person with a higher deadlift is correct? 
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
[quote]Tim Henriques wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
I’ll join this debate. It seems to me that the hips and knees extending account for most of the bar movement in a conventional deadlift, but that the back is sort of the weakest link, due to its position at the bottom. This is not necessarily true in a sumo deadlift due to the stronger back position (and weaker hip position) at the bottom of a sumo deadlift.
[/quote]
I would say there is considerable trunk extension in a deadlift, look at my own profile picture. My knees and hips are essentially finished extending, but the trunk still has a fair amount of movement left. [/quote]
Point taken, but let’s say you get the erectors stronger (stronger than everything else) such that they aren’t limiting. Then is all the trunk extension going to happen? I’m thinking that instead the erectors would just be doing anti-flexion and then a little extension at the end.
In light of what you said though. Do you think we should train the deadlift more by isolating trunk extension?
Something like arch back good mornings and maybe rounded RDLs?[/quote]
If the erectors were stronger than everything else you could just near stiff legged deadlift everything, a bit like KK dead lifts. If they were stronger than everything you would not do less trunk extension but more. Isolating trunk extension is hard to do because the hips act like a pivot point in the body. Louie likes arched back GM’s and rounded RDL’s, I am not sold on the safety of heavy rounded-back stuff to make it worthwhile.
From what I gather, EMG studies support what Tim is saying; the most muscle activity is seen in the back. You can argue all day about ideals, but watch any heavy deadlifter (conventional, anyway) and tell me they aren’t using their back to do the work. The position of the bar seems to be ignored, as well. When it’s out in front of you as with a DL, it’s easy to extend at the knee while barely moving the bar at all, and I think this is what actually happens when people think they are engaging their legs.