Question:
Does any account seem to say WHY one Unit had opened fire on the other Unit?
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Question:
Does any account seem to say WHY one Unit had opened fire on the other Unit?
Mufasa[/quote]
Yeah,that is common knowledge. For instance the SI article covers it quite explicitly, including a map from the satellite imagery. They were split due to broken down GMV by their company commander (who was not on the scene but ordered it over the radio despite protests by the on the scene platoon commander).
Keep in mind that this all happened because command wouldn’t let them abandon or even destroy one of their trucks that had broken down but insisted on having them sit all day and babysit it instead of continuing with their mission.
Apparently the friendly on friendly contact was initiated because of the Afghan friendly near Tillman. The other guys were trying to shoot him up.
Timeline from: ESPN.com - Timeline
Pat Tillman Timeline
EVENTS LEADING UP TO PAT TILLMAN’S DEATH
June 1994: Pat Tillman and Marie Ugenti (future Mrs. Pat Tillman) graduate from Leland High in San Jose. Marie is voted Best Smile (senior class); Pat is Most Masculine.
June 1997: David Uthlaut graduates high school in Charleston, S.C. Accepts appointment to U.S. Military Academy at West Point from Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-S.C.).
Fall 1997: Tillman is Pac-10 Defensive Player of the Year at Arizona State.
April 1998: Tillman drafted in seventh and final round by Arizona Cardinals.
May 28, 1998: Tillman and four-time tennis All-American Reka Cseresnyes (Tillman study partner and Jared Schrieber’s wife) selected Arizona State’s top male and female student-athletes, respectively.
Spring 1998: Tillman graduates summa cum laude from Arizona State in 3½ years with 3.82 GPA in marketing.
Jan. 2001: Uthlaut is No. 1 in his class at West Point and named captain of cadets �?? represents Army marching in inauguration parade down Pennsylvania Avenue
May 2001: Uthlaut graduates West Point.
Sept. 11, 2001: Terrorist attacks kill about 3,000 in New York; Washington, D.C.; and rural Pennsylvania.
Oct. 7, 2001: Start of Arizona Cardinals at Philadelphia Eagles game delayed as President Bush appears on Veterans Stadium videoboard to announce American and British forces are attacking Taliban and terrorist targets in Afghanistan in retaliation for 9/11 �?� Strong safety Pat Tillman sprains ankle in first quarter and hops off the field on one leg without assistance.
May 2002: Pat Tillman and brother, Kevin, enlist in Army at a Denver recruiting station �?? signing a three-year commitment �?? soon after Pat returned from a two-week honeymoon with wife, Marie, in Bora Bora.
Summer-fall 2002: Infantry basic training (14 weeks) at Fort Benning (Ga.). Completed program October 2002, immediately followed by Basic Airborne Course (three weeks) at Fort Benning.
Early 2003: Reports to 75th Ranger Regiment and Ranger indoctrination program; returns to Fort Benning for Ranger School and returns to 75th Ranger Regiment at Fort Lewis, Wash.
March 2003: Pat and Kevin Tillman deployed to Iraq.
May 8, 2003: Capt. Richard M. Scott among 27 officers presented Gen. Douglas MacArthur Army Leadership Awards.
Early 2004: Pat Tillman friend and MIT grad student Jared Schrieber e-mails anti-war activist Noam Chomsky, an MIT linguistics professor, about meeting with Tillman after he returns from Afghanistan. Meeting was to take place after Tillman completed his enlistment in July 2005.
Early April: Tillmans’ unit deployed from Fort Lewis to Afghanistan.
April 20, 2004: Unit held up two days at AMF compound in southeastern Afghanistan trying to repair broken Humvee.
April 21, 2004: Helicopter flies in fuel pump for broken-down Humvee, but mechanics can’t make repair.
APRIL 22, 2004
4 p.m.: Platoon leader (Lt. David Uthlaut) hires a local truck driver to tow the broken vehicle.
5:30-6 p.m.: Company commander directs Lt. Uthlaut to split platoon �?? he does so, into Serial 1 and Serial 2 �?� Serial 1 leaves down canyon road toward village of Manah; Serial 2 leaves 15-20 minutes later, towing broken vehicle. Because the terrain is too rugged, Serial 2 changes route and follows same path as Serial 1.
6:31 p.m.: Sun sets over the small village of Manah in southeastern Afghanistan close to Pakistan border, according to Army officials.
6:34 p.m.: Squad leader in Serial 1 instructs team leaders to maneuver Rangers onto a ridgeline that faces ambush site.
6:43 p.m.: Pat Tillman maneuvers his team of Bryan O’Neal and a friendly Afghan soldier low on the ridgeline. Sgt. Greg Baker, in the lead vehicle of Serial 2, spots the Afghan, mistaking him for the enemy, and fires a series of fatal rounds into his stomach. Three other Ranger gunners follow sergeant’s lead and open fire in same direction, killing Pat Tillman.
6:53-6:58 p.m.: Kevin Tillman, in the section split from Pat about quarter-mile down the road, arrives at the scene after his brother is killed. He is put on assignment guarding the area and finds out about 30 minutes later that Pat is KIA.
7:50 p.m.: Pat Tillman pronounced dead after being flown by helicopter to the 325th Field Hospital, Forward Operating Base at Salerno, though fellow Rangers say he was obviously dead at the scene.
Night: Bryan O’Neal, who had been positioned alongside Pat Tillman, tells a first sergeant that he suspects fratricide. The first sergeant tells Company Commander Capt. William Saunders.
EVENTS FOLLOWING PATRICK TILLMAN’S DEATH
April 23, 2004: Black Sheep platoon spends the night at the site and the next day completes sweep operation in the nearby village, finding only women, no men.
April 23, 2004: According to Army, a senior witness arrives at scene in the morning and remains several hours, departing at noon.
April 23, 2004: Capt. Richard Scott is assigned as investigating officer of 15-6, told of possibility of fratricide.
April 23, 2004: Jade Lane and Uthlaut talk with Kevin Tillman at the field hospital in Salerno. They watch ceremony moving Tillman’s body to helicopter for 40-minute flight to Bagram. Lane and Uthlaut are flown on another helicopter to hospital in Bagram.
April 23, 2004: Officials announce the death of Tillman. The White House puts out a statement praising Tillman as “an inspiration both on and off the football field.”
April 23, 2004: Officials announce the death of Tillman. The White House puts out a statement praising Tillman as “an inspiration both on and off the football field.”
April 23, 2004: Soldier burns Tillman’s body armor.
April 24, 2004: Capt. Scott begins interviewing witnesses.
April 25, 2004: Platoon meets as a group at Forward Operating Base (Camp Salerno) to talk over incident; meeting includes a chaplain, called critical incident stress debriefing.
April 25, 2004: Tillman’s uniform and vest are burned.
April 26, 2004: Army has collected at least 14 witness statements describing the incident.
April 27, 2004: Tillman autopsy, performed at Dover AFB (Del.), concludes based on available investigative reports that death was caused by friendly fire, but date of report is July 22, 2004.
April 27, 2004: Tillman Silver Star recommendation submitted.
April 28, 2004: “60 Minutes II” shows photos depicting abuse by U.S. soldiers working as guards in Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison.
April 29, 2004: Gen. Abizaid, Gen. Brown and Lt. Gen Kensinger are told friendly fire is “highly possible” �?� determine Tillman should still receive Silver Star.
April 29, 2004: Silver Star commendation signed by Gen. Wes Brownlee, acting Army Secretary.
April 30, 2004: Army releases statement to announce Tillman is being awarded Silver Star �?� tells of heroic battlefield action �?� Tillman also to be awarded Purple Heart and promoted posthumously from specialist to corporal.
May 1, 2004: Pres. Bush comments at 90th annual White House Correspondents’ Association dinner that Tillman death “brought home the sorrow that comes with every loss and reminds us of the character of the men and women who serve on our behalf �?� was modest because he knew there were many like him making their own sacrifice.”
May 3, 2004: About an hour before memorial service in Municipal Rose Garden in San Jose, Calif., Navy SEAL Steve White �?? Tillman friend who reads tale of heroic acts and what Tillman did to be honored with Silver Star at ceremony �?? is given the story by an enlisted Army officer.
May 3, 2004: Memorial for Tillman in the Municipal Rose Garden in San Jose �?? nearly 2,000 people, including Rangers and Army officials, attend service �?? televised live by ESPN.
May 4, 2004: First investigation report delivered by Capt. Scott; determines soldiers involved had committed gross negligence.
May 8, 2004: Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich appointed to conduct a second investigation.
May 15, 2004: Kauzlarich completes his investigation.
May 24, 2004: On the day his unit returns from Afghanistan to Fort Lewis, Kevin Tillman is told by Col. Bailey that his brother’s death was caused by friendly fire.
May 28, 2004: Mary Tillman, Pat’s mother, is notified of friendly fire/fratricide in a call from Arizona Republic reporter.
May 28, 2004: Gen. Abizaid, head of CENTCOM, approves findings of official investigation by Lt. Col. Kauzlarich under an aide’s signature.
May 29, 2004: Army acknowledges friendly fire “probably” killed Tillman in terse announcement issued by Lt. Gen. Philip R. Kensinger Jr. at Fort Bragg, N.C. Kensinger takes no questions.
Memorial Day weekend, 2004: Col. Bailey and Kevin Tillman visit Mary Tillman’s house to detail situation. Mike Spalding, her brother, is present.
June 2004: Lt. Uthlaut pays visit to Marie Tillman and Kevin Tillman in Fort Lewis/Tacoma area.
Late June, 2004: Tillmans travel to Fort Lewis for presentation of findings from Lt. Col. Kauzlarich’s investigation, presented by Col. Bailey/Col. Nixon.
June 18, 2004: Pres. Bush and Sen. McCain visit Madigan Army Medical Center at Fort Lewis. Jade Lane, wounded in same friendly-fire incident, meets Bush, gets photo taken and receives presidential coin.
July 22, 2004: Official report date on Tillman autopsy.
Late Summer 2004: Mary Tillman sends questions to Sen. John McCain, who passes them to Secretary of Army for response.
Aug. 31, 2004: Sgt. Greg Baker signs out of his unit, with honorable discharge.
Sept. 19, 2004: Pres. Bush appears on video scoreboard and offers comments as Tillman is honored and jersey is retired at an Arizona Cardinals game. �?� Marie Tillman, mother/father and younger brother Richard are on field for ceremony, but Kevin Tillman isn’t.
Oct. 1, 2004: Autopsy report is sent to Mary Tillman, Pat’s mother, by the Department of Defense �?? Armed Services Institute of Pathology.
Late 2004-2005: Kevin Tillman attends sniper school at Fort Bragg (N.C.), runs into Capt. Richard Scott, who tells him he did first investigation of the incident involving his brother. No one had been aware of Scott’s report, and it remains classified.
Nov. 1, 2004: Uthlaut promoted to Army captain, but is no longer in Rangers.
Nov. 4, 2004 : Capt. Scott serves as witness in another investigation by Brig. Gen. Gary Jones, complains that soldiers changed their stories from his investigation to the next inquiry.
Dec. 16, 2004: USO center at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan named in honor of Tillman, funded by $250,000 donation from NFL.
Spring 2005: Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones issues his investigative findings. Report says Army knew almost immediately that Tillman killed by friendly fire, but did not intentionally cover it up.
March 31, 2005: Brig. Gen. Jones briefs the Tillman family �?? his parents, brother Kevin, wife Marie, uncle Mike Spalding �?? at Moffett Field (air base near San Jose).
April 1, 2005: Mary Tillman and her brother, Mike, frustrated by answers, return the following day to further question Jones.
Spring 2005: Mary Tillman sends questions to Sen. McCain after briefing by Brig. Gen. Jones. �?� Army responds in letter.
April 21, 2005: Mr. Tillman writes Brig. Gen. Jones, painting his investigation as cover-up and whitewash of the facts �?? lays out his theory about the shooting, including reference to Sgt. Baker and “kill shot.” �?� Letter is forwarded to Department of Defense.
June 2005: Army apologizes for delay in notification; issues statement that blames procedural misjudgements.
June 21, 2005: Mr. Tillman faxes David Morriss, counsel to Senate Armed Services Committee, and includes copy of the letter he sent Brig. Gen. Jones, colorfully laying out his facts, challenging the Army.
July 2005: Kevin Tillman completes three-year commitment and leaves Army.
July 26, 2005: Mary Tillman sends questions to Rep. Mike Honda, D-Calif., which are forwarded to the Department of Defense.
Aug. 9, 2005: Department of Defense Inspector General’s Office announces it will conduct a review of the Army’s handling of the Tillman incident.
March 4, 2006: Defense Department inspector general tells the Army to open criminal inquiry (assigned to Criminal Investigation Division) into shooting of Tillman, as part of inspector general’s overall review. It is not a separate investigation.
March 23, 2006: Letter sent to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld by Congressmen Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, Mike Honda, Christopher Shays, R-Conn., and Ike Skelton, D-Mo., letting him know of their interest in Tillman investigation.
Spring 2006 : Staff from Inspector General’s Office visits Afghanistan.
Here is the SI article: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/09/05/tillman0911/
Its a long one.
If we want to get into some none PC discussion there is the atheism of Tillman as discussed by very Christian army officers: Playing the Atheism Card Against Pat Tillman�??s Family
Posted on Jul 28, 2006
By Stan Goff a retired veteran of the U.S. Army Special Forces. During an active-duty career that spanned 1970 to 1996, he served with the elite Delta Force and Rangers, and in Vietnam, Guatemala, Grenada, El Salvador, Colombia, Peru, Somalia and Haiti.
He is a veteran of the Jungle Operations Training Center in Panama and also taught military science at the United States Military Academy at West Point.
and his series of articles at: The Blog That Is Wild About Slot Machines!
The “Fog of War” indeed…
Thanks, Grimnuruk!
The problem STILL is that “first hand accounts” by nervous Soldiers, in the Dark, in a VERY dangerous place can be inexact; and are often “best interpretations” of someone’s memory.
However, I think that its safe to say that he wasn’t killed while engaging the Enemy.
Again; thanks for the information!
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
The “Fog of War” indeed…
Thanks, Grimnuruk!
The problem STILL is that “first hand accounts” by nervous Soldiers, in the Dark, in a VERY dangerous place can be inexact; and are often “best interpretations” of someone’s memory.
However, I think that its safe to say that he wasn’t killed while engaging the Enemy.
Again; thanks for the information!
Mufasa[/quote]
Sure thing.
Tillmans family needs to know…at least they think…I don’t even know them and I would rather have them have a memory of their son that they can live with rather than one of a “Class A” Jerk who was a victim of fratricide. I agree with Grimm though
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Now they want to villify him, or create a scandal, or both.
There are 3000 other US military deaths in this war - why is this one so damn imortant?
Please don’t think I am trying to minimize the value of life, or any other soldier’s contribution to this war - I honestly don’t know why the circumstances surrounding Tillman’s death is so fucking important.
[/quote]
Obviously his life is no more important than another soldiers. However, I heard on the news the other night that this took place when there was not even a fire-fight going on. Is that true? Yes, some say that he was fragged. Others say his death was the result of the fact that he wasn’t acting like a poster-boy should…i.e. he had stated he would vote for Kerry and that he felt an invasion into Iraq was illegal.
Obviously I dont know if any of these suspicions have any
basis in fact. However, if he (or any other soldier) is killed by “friendly fire” in a way that does not seem too friendly, it needs to be investigated. No?
[quote]entheogens wrote:
Obviously I dont know if any of these suspicions have any
basis in fact. However, if he (or any other soldier) is killed by “friendly fire” in a way that does not seem too friendly, it needs to be investigated. No?[/quote]
Maybe. But it shouldn’t be done through the press. This should be a private, internal matter.
Combat is dangerous and very confusing to all involved.
If it’s true they were babysitting a truck when this happened then the commander is going to pay and he should. Bad call to lose a man for an object.
I think it is natural for his unit to want to portray this in a favorable light to the Tillman family. To be honest nobody has a “right to know” how he died ,whether they think they do or not, except his family. I wouldn’t even call it a right, just an obligation that should be completed.
3 shots to the head doesn’t mean a thing. A sniper wouldn’t hit him 3 times in the head. 1 does the job. A controlled burst from an
M-4 is pretty typical for a ranger to fire. 3 rounds is about what you would fire. It could have been been intentional and Tillman was mistaken for the enemy. I can’t imagine he was fragged. That’s unheard of in an elite unit. Kind of a throwback to the “draft days” in the army and by all accounts Tillman was a guy you wanted around in a firefight. Guys who get fragged were usually inept combat leaders who are a danger to their men.
To be honest I can’t see how anyone is thinking this was an intentional fragging. For those of you who haven’t been in the military and haven’t thought it through: you want to wait until there is a real engagement for the “accident” to occur in, you also don’t want it in plain sight of others who aren’t in on it and might survive.
O’Neal was right there in arms reach getting shot at too. Was he also a target of his buddies who are all Rangers, fighting men held to a higher standard not some bunch of draftee punks. I think most people need to actually do bit of READING of the articles which explain the actual events rather than reading the headlines and the juicy quotes.