Thoughts on UBI?

Don’t say “When people lost their jobs due to COVID a lot of people supported government support,” if you don’t want to talk about why “a lot” supported it. A lot supported it because government took their jobs.
If Guy A is injured by Guy B and believes Guy B should be responsible for damages(including time he misses at work), that doesn’t mean he believes Guy B(or Guy C, D, or E) should have to support people that he has not harmed(or people that got the flu, or measles, or whatever else).

I’m happy to talk about it, see the above conversation. I’m not interested in feeding the troll

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I understand that point, and we will have to agree to disagree if you think that cattle farmer can easily figure out how to fish (or coal miners learning to code). I work in the technology sector, I don’t see it happening. Eventually it will, just like it has historically, but with the pace of digital it’ll be rough.

Maybe not code, but there are plenty of jobs that are less of a swing. And their kids will be automatically pointed towards something else with hopefully more future.

I totally get what you’re getting at here. I never feel like I say it well without sounding like “Hey, pity me!” but I’ve grown up quite poor from a generationally poor family. My mom went to the dentist last summer for the first time since I was born, haha.

Is Sweden’s population spread out fairly evenly or do you have big differences between your big cities and rural areas?

I live in a fairly small town in one of our smallest states, and something I’ve noticed that even buying cheap food is hard. It’s 200 miles minimum to find a town bigger than us, and those are the only towns with things like Costco’s (I’m not sure if you guys have these). We have two grocery stores and can’t really buy in bulk, or at least we can’t do it and be getting a discount. Meanwhile, the many smaller towns around us that come to us for all the “big city” amenities are too small to have grocery stores, so they just have gas stations or convenience stores that sell stuff for much more money than they do in my town. So my medium town (in relation to my state) is not big enough to have buying-in-bulk options, and the small towns are not big enough to have normal prices on normal amounts of food.

Beyond that, since we’re small and in the Midwest, there’s not always much access to things. We have tons and tons of beef, and then crops like corn and soybeans, but any other type of meat is hard to come by and very expensive, and getting any good fruit besides “basic” things like apples and oranges is also a rarity.

I hear a lot of people say in the long run it’s more expensive to get a McDonalds breakfast every morning than it is to make your own food, and while some things like eggs and oatmeal are fairly cheap and always available, in areas like mine, sometimes it actually is cheaper to get fast food. It’s certainly not healthier, but when my mom tried to clean up her diet and just buy some cheap meat to increase her protein intake, she almost doubled her monthly grocery expenses. It’s a tough decision to make - improved health/looks or spend less money?

I’ve been to stores in really rural areas that don’t contain any produce ever, or any meat beyond fake deli meat. Same with when I visit family who live in rough parts of some big cities.

I’m honestly not sure if I completely agree with you here, but I see where you’re coming from and don’t completely disagree with you, haha.

A somewhat related example that comes to mind is when my aunt moved from a very small town with literally no jobs available to a bigger town to get a job. She had one change of clothes, and no where to shower. She was living in her car. She went to several job interviews at places that certainly weren’t fancy places and since she was unable to shower or wear clean clothes, didn’t make a great impression. Then when she finally did get a serving job, she needed a pair of black dress pants. I think the scraped together a few bucks and got a pair from Salvation Army but that in itself was a struggle - getting a job, then not having the clothes for the job, then not being able to afford the clothes for the job…without the job lol. And her story is not unique.

Definitely agree with you. I didn’t phrase my thoughts well before - $12k will 100% help people, just not as much as I think they really need to get out of their situations.

All in all, when discussing things like this, I think there are some very smart, experienced people on the job, but unless you’ve really lived life as a truly poor person and all the hardships that that entails, you’re just not gonna get it. So that includes most politicians, haha.

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I think the real question is, what to you think of wealth redistribution? I am someone who would likely pay more in taxes to support Ubi, than I would receive, but I’m okay with that, as I think I’ve been given lots of opportunities.

I think this is true for some. I’ve been convinced of others hardships being much worse than my own. We have discussed the poor reservations before. After experiencing that, I could not compare myself to someone born into that situation. I haven’t experienced it, but have a pretty good idea.

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That’s true. I suppose I was thinking more of politicians being upset at the thought of people getting payments of $1,200, like in the grand scheme of things that was ever going to do anything besides get groceries for a few weeks. They don’t get it.

Either way, it’s a broad statement. There’s always exceptions.

Your point is true for many. Many people in my shoes do seem to lack empathy for others. I think it has to do with wanting to associate their achievements to themselves.

I think the eitc (earned income tax credit) program should be expanded. It basically pays people to earn more money until they reach a certain point. It is actually supported by many on both sides. It is wealth redistribution, but the incentives to work are there.

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Devil would be in the details. If it replaces/simplified some other social services I could get on board. I haven’t really read up on it enough and seen the different types of proposals.

We’re coming off a fairly significant labor shortage. We didn’t have enough people for all the available jobs. Obviously Covid will change a lot of things in the short term, but who knows.

We can’t even perform the socialism we already have properly. How’s the unemployment system working right now? Speedy and efficient? Yeah, let’s give them(government) more money and power. Should fix everything.

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Allow me to respond, @Alrightmiami19c :
How would you handle unemployment without government?
How would you feed poor children without government?
How would you do XYZ without government?

Your answer must:
Not involve any type of transaction other than individual-to-individual.
Provide a guaranteed outcome without forcing such outcome.
Not rely upon such mythological creatures as “the market” or “market forces.”
Not rely upon voluntary charity.

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“But this time we’ll get it right. There was some weird exception with that other program. This one will be streamline and cheap.” - every bullshit government program pitch ever.

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I really need to take your don’t feed the troll class. I tend to have an endless supply of food.

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It doesn’t ban alcohol.

Brother, I’d say it has.

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What does this even mean?

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I don’t know, it’s weird relating to poverty. On the one hand, I cannot fathom that because growing up our family was always somewhat well off. I’ve however insisted on making it on my own at times, and so I’ve… I’ve had sleep for dinner numerous times. And received a housing subsidy, been on sick-leave etcetera. But, I never felt stuck in a self-perpetuating loop that I couldn’t escape either.

Haha, to answer this in the best way I know how: “yes”.

Joking aside, the disparity between urban areas and rural areas isn’t as pronounced as I’ve come to understand it to be in certain parts in the U.S. I don’t know of a state that I could liken it to, as I haven’t traveled the States yet.

Like, I could hop into a car and drive across the entire nation in a day. So…

The smallest city I’ve lived in within these borders is about a tenth of the size of the one I live in and I had access to the same amenities there (supermarkets et al.) as I do here. I think infrastructurally the difference is to great to appreciate. A friend of mine did his PhD at UMass and here’s some differences I’ve picked up,

  • We intersperse commercial zones and residential aggressively. I have at least 5 grocery stores within biking distance.
  • The larger supermarkets are easier to access if you have a car, but collective transportation travels there also.
  • Collective transportation does not demand planning or forethought.
    • There are routes that take you to every location. At most, you have to make one switch and that is rare.
    • They leave every 10-15 minutes.
  • Our bike lanes are a feature. You can absolutely live without a car. It’s not a stretch to take the bike to the supermarket although it’s harder to shop in bulk
    • But if you need to, you can lease an electric bike with a basket big enough to transport another person (or a whole lot of groceries). Available to those below the poverty line? Eh… cheaper than a car at least.

I think what constitutes bulk-purchasing might differ between our two experience to be honest.

This is a hard one. On a krona/kcal ($/kcal) there are some items on the McDonalds menu that you could just narrowly beat. For instance, the chicken burger. But you would beat it, even when not buying at a special price. But then there is opportunity cost. The time it takes you to shop, cook, prepare, reheat, etcetera. And, there is also the matter of convenience. If your commute to work brings you past a McDonald’s, maybe it’d be “cheaper” for you to buy your breakfast than make your own. It also saves you time on clean-up.

But, it is very rare for anyone that isn’t a student to be working several part-time jobs. The norm, although not 100% applicable, is that you have one job. Worker security, unions, etcetera have historically been staple-concerns here. This has eroded somewhat of late, as the younger generation did not have to fight that fight. So time isn’t at the same premium as it would be for someone hustling several jobs.

Further, eating out is something that is culturally considered a treat. Even McDonalds. While a restaurant will cost you tons in comparison to McDonalds both would be “events”. We do not have diners that are open 24/7, and a pizza costs you a lot more than a homemade meal. Alcohol is similarily expensive. I.e., you go to a pub and the meal is at least going to be 12$ or more, and the beer is maybe 8$ minimum. This, I guess, encourages home-cooking.

Always costly, but eggs and liquid egg-whites gets one pretty far. And then rotate meat depending on what is on the cheap. For those fortunate enough to have a freezer a solution can be to buy meat on the expiration date and then freeze it. It’ll hold.

I’ve never had that experience anywhere here or in our border nations. @mortdk, what’s it like in Denmark?

I’ll just quote this, but I read the paragraph related to your aunt. I’d say that the difference is she actually spoke the language used in these establishments (presumably). The people I’m describing do not speak a word of Swedish or English so it’d be really hard for them to get a job. It’s figuratively despair personified.

I think the really hard part to grasp is how it can entrap you. How it’s a vicious cycle wherein all you manage to do is to scrape by just well-enough to start it anew.

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I think that any billionare that says that their success is self-made should immediately on their death be subjected to a 100% inheritance tax.

I cannot speak for U.S. politics, it’s too complicated for me to grasp as an outsider, but I’ve felt that politicians here and their wages should be anchored in such a way so that they are one with the majority of the population. Like, take the wage spectrum, omit the top 40%, take the median wage that is left, and make that the income. We do not have as high a degree of income inequality that this might actually work. Although, corruption is always a concern.

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