T Nation

Thoughts on this Powerlifting/Bodybuilding Hybrid


#1

Hello! I wasn’t sure where to post this, but I’m curious on your thoughts on this program I’ve come up with.
I’m a female, 20 years old, 172cm and around 64kg, aiming for 60kg, so therefore in small calorie deficit now.

I’ve been doing a modified PHAT routine for while, but I want to change things up a bit now. I have read a lot about different programs on the forum, but haven’t found any that goes over 5 days and includes both powerlifting, bodybuilding and some oly lifting (for the power!). I have tried to set up a routine, following DUP for the three big lifts - and accessory work based on musclegroups I want to improve. (Glutes, shoulders and arms, back)

I will do highbar squats (to strenghten my quads, been doing mostly low bar) and conventional deadlifts (been doing only sumo deadlifts, and I want to get strong in conventional deadlifts as well).

Monday:
Squat (heavy) 5x6
Benchpress (speed) 6x3
Deadlift (hypertrophy) 8x4
Hip thrust 5x5
Bulgarian squat, front 3x8
Biceps 4x8
Triceps 4x8

Tuesday - accessory
Snatch high pull, blocks 5x3-6
Pull ups, wide grip 5x5
Rowing 4x10
Dumbell press 4x10
Facepull 4x10
Shoulder complex (front raise from parallel, lateral raise, Y-raise and inside-out raise) 3x6

Wednesday
Benchpress 5x6 (heavy)
Deadlift, deficit (speed) 6x3
Squat (hypertrophy) 4x8
Hip thrust 3x12
SLD 3x8
a1) Biceps 4x12
a2) Triceps 4x12

Thursday - accessory
Hang clean, from blocks 5x3-6
Frontsquat, with stop 4x8
Chins, neutral 4x8
Pushpress 3x8
Pull through 4x12-15
Reverse fly 3x12-15
Lateral raise, cable 3x12-15

Friday
Deadlift (heavy) 5x6
Squat (speed) 6x3
Benchpress (hypertrophy) 4x8
Hipthrust 4x8
Rowing 3x8
Back extension 3x10
a1) Biceps 3x10
a2) Triceps 3x10

  • I might take wednesday or thursday off, and then do thurs-fri-saturday instead of in need of a day off
  • superset hipthrust and monsterwalk/sumowalk with minibands
  • some cardio/HIIT a couple times a week

Do you have any suggestions on what to change? Is it too much/too little on some muscle groups? Reps/sets?

Thank you very much for all your posts and information!


#2

[quote]clmb wrote:
I’ve been doing a modified PHAT routine for while, but I want to change things up a bit now. I have read a lot about different programs on the forum, but haven’t found any that goes over 5 days and includes both powerlifting, bodybuilding and some oly lifting (for the power!). I have tried to set up a routine, following DUP for the three big lifts - and accessory work based on musclegroups I want to improve. (Glutes, shoulders and arms, back)

Do you have any suggestions on what to change? Is it too much/too little on some muscle groups? Reps/sets?

Thank you very much for all your posts and information!

[/quote]

I think there’s a reason you haven’t seen something like this: it doesn’t tend to work too well.

Also, yes, I think there is definitely too much.

Barring the ridiculously high volume stuff like Bulgarian training and Smolov, generally most strength programs have you working at most four days a week. Recovery is key to getting stronger. Different story for hypertrophy, or at least sort of, but recovery is hugely important for that too.

Main issues I see with your program:

  1. Too much everything
  2. You’re already in a caloric deficit. Caloric deficit+too much everything=badness

I have actually tried combing Oly and PL lifts. Didn’t hurt me, but definitely didn’t work particularly well. I’ve had better results focusing on PL with some higher rep assistance in terms of getting bigger and stronger.

The exercises you picked are all pretty good, there’s just too much.

If you’re dead set on this combination, try something like this.

Day A
Clean variation - work up to a heavy single
Squat - 5x3 at around 85%
Press variation - 3x5 at around 80%
Lower body accessory - hinge 3xmany
Upper body accessory - pulling 3xmany

Day B
High pull variation - work up to a heavy single
Bench press variation - 5x3 at around 85%
Squat - 3x5 at around 80%
Lower body accessory - pushing 3xmany
Upper body accessory - pulling 3xmany

Day C
Clean variation - work up to a heavy single
Deadlift - 5x3 at around 85%
Press variation - 3x5 at around 80%
Lower body accessory - pushing 3xmany
Upper body accessory - pushing 3xmany

I’d use mostly lower body accessories like GHR, reverse hyper and lunges. Leg press can be cool too if you have a good one.

Upper body accessories for pulling DB rows and chin/pull ups are good. For pushing dips and DB press variations, also push ups if you like.

I generally pick a smallish number of accessories and just use those but it’s really up to you.

If you must have a fourth day, do some conditioning based around carrying or pushing stuff around.

EDIT: for the actual progression, I’d stick with something linear for as long as you can. Something like 10 lbs on lower body and 5 lbs on upper body every couple of weeks should work for around 12 weeks - then you test your maxes, and reset and go for another 12 weeks based on your new maxes. Loads for accessories don’t matter so much. I tend to use a fluid double progression for those, but often just sit at one load for a cycle as long as its still challenging.


#3

Hey! Thank you so much for the reply and the example for a set up :slight_smile: I do agree that it seems a bit too much. My thoughts for the set up were:

  1. High frequency training
  • done right. My overall lifts has gone down the last couple of week/months, maybe because of training too hard/heavy for a while (?)
  • I have used linear progression for a long time, and it has stagnated!
  • I am therefore going to cut down a bit on my “1RM” when I calculate the percentages for the sessions.
    **Earlier maxes: 92.5kg lowbar squat with belt, 125kg sumo deadlift with belt, 70kg benchpress (no pause) - 65kg with pause.
  1. The reason for the high volume were basically to practice technique (especially for the highbar squats and conventional deadlift) for the first couple of week, and than change the volume as the weeks goes by to lower volume and heavier weights.

  2. I followed the DUP system for all the three lifts on mon/wed/fri - and added 2 “accessory” days for snatch hp and clean from blocks. I’m not thinking about going balls out on these two lifts every week, it’s more to practice the movement and get some hypertrophy (especially from the high pull) and some power from the cleans!

  3. Reasons for all the accessory work is basically because of the lack of muscle there, and by stimulating the muscle more often, it’ll hopefully grow a bit!! :stuck_out_tongue: Not necessary going very heavy (therefore different rep ranges) but just to work a bit on the muscle… My shoulders (esp. rear delt), glutes, bic/tric grows very slow, even tho I bench, squat, dl often! It just needs more specific work I guess?

  4. I set up five times a week because I have the time to train almost everyday, and I’m not active at all except when training!


#4

Being a big fan of high frequency and high volume training, I love it. I say go for it. See what happens. You know, from experience, what happened on phat, drawing off that, maybe this is what you need. Try it out for a month. A training program on paper, or in practice, are two drastically different things.


#5

Thanks for the reply, beliver423! Awesome to hear :slight_smile: I think high frequency has a lot of benefits, as long as it is done right. So we shall see how it goes! As of now, the program looks like this - doing 3 sets instead of 4 on mostly of the accessory work.

Monday:
Squat, high bar 5x6 (heavy)
Benchpress 6x3 (speed)
Deadlift 4x8 (hypertrophy)
Hip thrust 5x5
Bulgarian split squat 2-3x8
Biceps 3x8
Triceps 3x8

Tuesday:
Snatch high pull 5x3-6
Pullups, wide grip 5x5
Rowing 3x10
Dumbellpress 3x10
Facepull 3x12-15
Shoulder complex (front raise from parallel, lateral raise, Y-raise and inside-out raise) 3x6

Wednesday
Benchpress 5x6 (heavy)
Deadlift, deficit 6x3 (hypertrophy)
Squat 4x8 (hypertrophy)
Hip thrust 3x12
Straight legged deadlift 3x12
a1) Biceps 3x12-15
a2) Triceps 3x12-15

Thursday - accessory
Hang clean, from blocks 5x3-6
Frontsquat, with stop 4x8
Chins, neutral 4x8
Pushpress 4x8
Pull through 4x12-15
Reverse fly 3x12-15
Lateral raise, cable 3x12-15

Friday
Deadlift 5x6 (heavy)
Squat 6x3 (speed)
Benchpress 4x8 (hypertrophy)
Hipthrust 4x8
Rowing 3x8
a1) Biceps 3x10
a2) Triceps 3x10

What do you think?


#6

[quote]clmb wrote:
Hey! Thank you so much for the reply and the example for a set up :slight_smile: I do agree that it seems a bit too much. My thoughts for the set up were:

  1. High frequency training
  • done right. My overall lifts has gone down the last couple of week/months, maybe because of training too hard/heavy for a while (?)
  • I have used linear progression for a long time, and it has stagnated!
  • I am therefore going to cut down a bit on my “1RM” when I calculate the percentages for the sessions.
    **Earlier maxes: 92.5kg lowbar squat with belt, 125kg sumo deadlift with belt, 70kg benchpress (no pause) - 65kg with pause.
  1. The reason for the high volume were basically to practice technique (especially for the highbar squats and conventional deadlift) for the first couple of week, and than change the volume as the weeks goes by to lower volume and heavier weights.

  2. I followed the DUP system for all the three lifts on mon/wed/fri - and added 2 “accessory” days for snatch hp and clean from blocks. I’m not thinking about going balls out on these two lifts every week, it’s more to practice the movement and get some hypertrophy (especially from the high pull) and some power from the cleans!

  3. Reasons for all the accessory work is basically because of the lack of muscle there, and by stimulating the muscle more often, it’ll hopefully grow a bit!! :stuck_out_tongue: Not necessary going very heavy (therefore different rep ranges) but just to work a bit on the muscle… My shoulders (esp. rear delt), glutes, bic/tric grows very slow, even tho I bench, squat, dl often! It just needs more specific work I guess?

  4. I set up five times a week because I have the time to train almost everyday, and I’m not active at all except when training!
    [/quote]

You’ve obviously thought it through, and you’re also obviously excited by the program. On that basis, trying it won’t hurt.

Personally, based on my own experience I don’t think it’ll work as well as something else (and the same may well hold true for what I suggested, by the way) but there’s no harm in trying.

Your idea to use a ‘training max’ for calculating working loads is excellent. Also the idea of high volume for practice. It definitely works. I’ve found a slightly different way of doing it, basically 3x5 of my weakest lift every day I train set at around 75% and increasing every four weeks or so.

As I said, you’ve thought it through, you are enthusiastic about it and you’ve got a definite logic behind the structure so trying it is far from a bar idea.

With the high pulls and cleans, personally I never found them to help with gaining size. Possibly I did them in the wrong way or wrong volume, but either way they didn’t do my back size any favours. Lots of heavy DB rows, chest supported rows, pull ups (until my elbows died) and pull aparts, however, did a lot for my back.

Bis and tris growing slowly is pretty normal I think. Glutes could be just a genetic thing or not squatting often enough (which you’ve solved). Sumo DL is great for glutes.

Anyhow, best of luck. Starting a training log on this site is a good idea because people can check on and give you tips.


#7

Yeah! I’ve thought it through and believe that this is one (of thousands!) ways to do it. I might have to change things a bit, but we’ll see after going through it this week. I think that as long as I don’t get burned out on accessory days etc, it’ll be fine.

About high pulls and hang cleans, I’ve never used them in my programming before, so I’m not sure how I will respond on them. But, it’s fun and I like them so why not try!

Thanks a lot! I might start to log my training in here very soon :slight_smile:


#8

[quote]clmb wrote:
Yeah! I’ve thought it through and believe that this is one (of thousands!) ways to do it. I might have to change things a bit, but we’ll see after going through it this week. I think that as long as I don’t get burned out on accessory days etc, it’ll be fine.

About high pulls and hang cleans, I’ve never used them in my programming before, so I’m not sure how I will respond on them. But, it’s fun and I like them so why not try!

Thanks a lot! I might start to log my training in here very soon :)[/quote]

Highly ambitious project.

The motivation is clearly there and it sounds like you have ample time in your life to train. Nice the hubby supports it. Also, based on your pic, it looks like you know a thing or two. This, along with your willingness to keep an open mind and make adjustments as needed, gives you an edge.

Should you start a log here, I just might visit from time to time and offer my thoughts.


#9

[quote]clmb wrote:
Yeah! I’ve thought it through and believe that this is one (of thousands!) ways to do it. I might have to change things a bit, but we’ll see after going through it this week. I think that as long as I don’t get burned out on accessory days etc, it’ll be fine.

About high pulls and hang cleans, I’ve never used them in my programming before, so I’m not sure how I will respond on them. But, it’s fun and I like them so why not try!

Thanks a lot! I might start to log my training in here very soon :)[/quote]

In which case, very best of luck. I do hope you start a log because I’m interested to see how this works.


#10

I think it’s worth clarifying your goals here (and sorry if this has been mentioned).

Do you want to lift the most possible weight in the 3 powerlifts (or some subset) and want to add some mass because you believe that will help with your lifts?

Do you want to maximise your muscle mass and symmetry and want to get stronger in the powerlifts because you believe being stronger in those lifts will give you more muscle mass/symmetry?

I ask because it is hard increasing strength, hypertrophy, power and proficiency all in a single training session and you must prioritize based on your goals.


#11

Hi. I’m wondering how this program is treating you.


#12

Hi! Thanks for asking. So far it’s been good! Not feeling like it’s too much, but it might be because I’ve been careful with the loads and turned down my 1RM a lot for all the lifts cause I’ve gotten weak AF the last couple of months. I’m going to continue the calorie deficit (after christmas!), so I don’t think there will be much strenght gains for me yet, and I might have to switch things up depending on how it goes.

I’m thinking of doing a more agressive diet just to get it over with, and not having to be in a calorie deficit for longer than needed. It’s just 4-6 kilos so it shouldn’t take too long if keep my diet on point!


#13

Feel free to keep us updated. The more I think about this, the more I suspect this has a shot-gun approach to it.

Nothing against high-frequency tactics but the programming needs more precision.