Thoughts on Planning PCT

i’m glad people are getting something out of this… i am by no means an expert, but have been able to track some data that seems to clarify things quite a bit.

anyway, something else i thought might need to be mentioned is why PCT can’t be rushed.

when we’re waiting for the ester to clear the body, it doesn’t just take a couple weeks. test e/cyp has a half-life of 4.5 days, but that simply means that it is half the dose 4.5 days after injection. for the sake of planning, we will just assume that it has the half-life of a week.

if you’re ran test e for 12 weeks at 600 mg, the final week you wouldn’t just have 600 mg in your body-you’d have just under 1200 mg, due to the ester build up (600+300+150+75+37.5 etc etc). now, once we stop administering a dose, the blood levels drop pretty quick, but you wouldn’t be below 1 mg of exogenous test until 10 weeks later.

the most an adult male is gonna produce of test is 10 mg/day, or 70 mg/wk. so with that being said, we can’t expect our HPTA to kick back in until it’s at least below that level. and since we know that any amount of an exogenous hormone is going to cause suppression, we have to continue with the SERM until the vast majority of that is out of the body.

so in this case, blood levels of test are gonna hit 74-ish on week 16. i would add in the SERM at this point, and continue taking it until we are down to 1 mg or so (week 22, in this case). this will allow the SERM to increase our own production as the outside test is slowly tapering out. now the nice thing about Nolva is, we know that it’s still effective for 6-8 weeks. tore isn’t quite as effective as nolva, but it does work longer (12 weeks), so it’s a great option in longer cycles.

i know for me, i tend to screw up the math, so i just plug it all into an excel spreadsheet and go from there…

hope this helps!

^this should also help explain why an AI is neccessary in the bridge between the cycle and PCT… even though you might not be taking anything for a couple weeks, there is still quite a bit of test floating around, and it can easily lead to aromatization. and again, while high test is obviously suppressive to the HPTA, high estrogen is far worse in that regard.

you might not need the same dose that you needed while on cycle, but it’s still a good idea to keep taking that in the meantime…

I’m using clomid right now to PCT off a smaller cycle of sustanon. I had great results and kept them all so far maybe like 90% but I had severe shut down and my balls got tiny. Three days after clomid my balls feel huge I almost wanna post a picture (JK). Heres where my comment gets relevant. As far as the AI’s go on PCT i felt that when i used clomid alone for pct it was great for my HPTA but i started gaining water weight and fat retention like i kept all my muscle but im gaining fat so I started taking arimistane with the clomid and im drying out again.

Since clomid acts as a mild estrogen also doesnt get rid of the existing estrogen i was wondering if the side effects of clomid like pms and stuff would be curbed a little by the arimistane, also is the AI stepping on clomids toes? Its something I was wondering if theres any input. All in all id say 70mg clomid/day for 10 days then 50mg for couple weeks and you should be good.

[quote]squater429 wrote:
I’m using clomid right now to PCT off a smaller cycle of sustanon. I had great results and kept them all so far maybe like 90% but I had severe shut down and my balls got tiny. Three days after clomid my balls feel huge I almost wanna post a picture (JK). Heres where my comment gets relevant. As far as the AI’s go on PCT i felt that when i used clomid alone for pct it was great for my HPTA but i started gaining water weight and fat retention like i kept all my muscle but im gaining fat so I started taking arimistane with the clomid and im drying out again.

Since clomid acts as a mild estrogen also doesnt get rid of the existing estrogen i was wondering if the side effects of clomid like pms and stuff would be curbed a little by the arimistane, also is the AI stepping on clomids toes? Its something I was wondering if theres any input. All in all id say 70mg clomid/day for 10 days then 50mg for couple weeks and you should be good. [/quote]

well, i think one should generally use at least a low dose AI during the cycle, and carrying that into PCT. if estrogen is high, then it suppresses the HPTA (more than high “T”).

while Clomid is a SERM, it is different from Nolva (as they are all different, obviously). Clomid is typically known as being better at raising test/LH than in blocking the effects of high estrogen. also, SERMs do raise estrogen as well, albeit by a little bit.

i feel this needs to be said, as the forum seems to be getting jammed up with some really basic issues that could be easily resolved.

if you don’t feel like reading which AI or SERM is best, or even what they are, then here is some basic advice for the beginner.


if you’re doing a cycle, run Armidex (.25 mg/EOD) from the beginning of the cycle until PCT (and adjust the dose as needed).

for PCT, run Nolvadex (20 mg/ED) for 6 weeks.


obviously, this is a broad, one size fits all recommendation, but for plenty of guys that have issues, relatively simple things like that would have prevented a ton of side effects and saved them a lot of time and money.

FWIW, my thoughts on the use of an AI during PCT has changed a bit since i started this thread:

as a general rule, i would suggest running the AI until you start your SERM, and if possible, overlap a week

if you have estrogen issues on cycle, then i’d run the AI longer and tweak the dose, as needed

side note: i also don’t think HCG needs to be as complicated as we make it, either… just run 500 IU/wk and stop it a week prior to the SERM.

example of a regular cycle with no estrogen issues:

Week 1-10
Test E: 500 mg/wk
HCG: 500 IU/wk
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD

Week 11
HCG: 500 IU/wk
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD

Week 12
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD

Week 13-18
Nolvadex-20 mg/day

Or:

Week 1-10
Test E: 500 mg/wk
HCG: 500 IU/wk
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD

Week 11
HCG: 500 IU/wk
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD

Week 12
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD

Week 13
A-dex: .25 mg/EOD
Toremifine: 60 mg/day

Week 14-18
Toremifine: 60 mg/day

1 Like

@cycobushmaster

What supplements would you take for PCT?

[quote]Maldo wrote:
@cycobushmaster

What supplements would you take for PCT?[/quote]

did you not read the thread? He laid out EXACTLY how to approach PCT.

[quote]Maldo wrote:
@cycobushmaster

What supplements would you take for PCT?[/quote]

besides ZMA and vitamin D (and occasionally DAA), i don’t think there are a whole lot of supplements that should be used…

If one cannot run nolva as long as something like toremifene, and we’ve obviously concluded running clomid and nolva together are a bad idea, would I be able to run the clomid after i’ve finished the nolva? So if I run what you’ve layed out for me in the past, 6 weeks of nolva at 20mg/day, could I then run the clomid at say 50mg/day for a month?

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:
If one cannot run nolva as long as something like toremifene, and we’ve obviously concluded running clomid and nolva together are a bad idea, would I be able to run the clomid after i’ve finished the nolva? So if I run what you’ve layed out for me in the past, 6 weeks of nolva at 20mg/day, could I then run the clomid at say 50mg/day for a month?

[/quote]

well, i guess i’d ask why you’d want to do that?

you could run clomid after nolva, but i would use it at 25mg instead of 50mg (or you could use tore, or ralox, etc)…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:
If one cannot run nolva as long as something like toremifene, and we’ve obviously concluded running clomid and nolva together are a bad idea, would I be able to run the clomid after i’ve finished the nolva? So if I run what you’ve layed out for me in the past, 6 weeks of nolva at 20mg/day, could I then run the clomid at say 50mg/day for a month?

[/quote]

well, i guess i’d ask why you’d want to do that?

you could run clomid after nolva, but i would use it at 25mg instead of 50mg (or you could use tore, or ralox, etc)…[/quote]

Just to extend my PTC? I guess I had no other reasoning behind it than that. You recommended I use tore but I didnt have access to it, so you said use nolva for a shorter amount of time.

Also, unrelated, I shot you a PM if you havent seen it already.

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:
If one cannot run nolva as long as something like toremifene, and we’ve obviously concluded running clomid and nolva together are a bad idea, would I be able to run the clomid after i’ve finished the nolva? So if I run what you’ve layed out for me in the past, 6 weeks of nolva at 20mg/day, could I then run the clomid at say 50mg/day for a month?

[/quote]

well, i guess i’d ask why you’d want to do that?

you could run clomid after nolva, but i would use it at 25mg instead of 50mg (or you could use tore, or ralox, etc)…[/quote]

Just to extend my PTC? I guess I had no other reasoning behind it than that. You recommended I use tore but I didnt have access to it, so you said use nolva for a shorter amount of time.

Also, unrelated, I shot you a PM if you havent seen it already.[/quote]

oh, well you can run nolva 8 weeks, so you can run that another couple weeks if you need/want to…

from what i’ve seen, ralox is only good for 4 weeks, nolva for 8 weeks and tore for 12 weeks. not sure about clomid, but it appears to work pretty well for long durations…

^hey, i just re-read your original thread…

how are you feeling now, recovery-wise? if possible, you should prolly get blood work if you can.

since you were on for a while, you might need to err on the side of caution. if you’re not feeling good now and don’t feel nolva is going fix you in 2 more weeks, then i’d try the clomid route for as long as it takes. obviously you had extenuating circumstances around you coming “off,” so you might need to treat this for a lot longer…

side note: i did not get your PM… i believe Reed mentioned that they don’t work here for whatever reason…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
^hey, i just re-read your original thread…

how are you feeling now, recovery-wise? if possible, you should prolly get blood work if you can.

since you were on for a while, you might need to err on the side of caution. if you’re not feeling good now and don’t feel nolva is going fix you in 2 more weeks, then i’d try the clomid route for as long as it takes. obviously you had extenuating circumstances around you coming “off,” so you might need to treat this for a lot longer…

side note: i did not get your PM… i believe Reed mentioned that they don’t work here for whatever reason…

[/quote]

I see. Well, my first batch of HCG was seized by customs, and they allowed it in the country the 2nd time I ordered… for whatever stupid reason.

So I just started my PCT this past sunday. Instead of staying on for an additional month, I just didnt pin for almost 3 weeks, and pinned right before I started this PCT, just so I wouldnt have a horrific crash midway through.

My PM to you was about the HCG. You recommended I use the HCG at 500iu EOD for 3 weeks, and I wanted to know your thoughts on me possibly extending that amount of time on (possibly use it for 4 or 5 weeks, take a week and then start nolva) or just use the HCG for the 3 weeks, and pin it at 500iu ED instead of EOD. I understand using large amounts of HCG is not a good idea, but I figured since I did infact have tren as part of my cycle, and I was “on” for nearly 6 months, the HCG is the only way I’d come back.

So my plan would look something like this:

Week 1-4
HCG - 500iu ED
Aromasim 25mg ED

Week 5:
Aromasin 25mg ED

Week 6-13:
Nolva 20mg ED

Week 14-18:
Clomid 50mg ED

So what’s different from what you originally layed out is, using the HCG for an extra week, and using it 500iu ED instead of the EOD, Using the nolva for a full 8 weeks, And using the clomid for an extra month. Thoughts?

well, how much testicular atrophy do you have?

if it’s not too bad, then i’d go with the EOD dosing and shorter protocol… but if you’re highly suppressed, then it might be better to go ED and a week longer.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
well, how much testicular atrophy do you have?

if it’s not too bad, then i’d go with the EOD dosing and shorter protocol… but if you’re highly suppressed, then it might be better to go ED and a week longer.[/quote]

It’s really hard to tell, they havent shrunk a crazy amount, maybe a 40% loss but that’s just a guess. When I didn’t pin for those 3 weeks I think they started to come back just a little bit, and literally just a few days after I pinned for the last time, they felt a little smaller.

My only concern here is frying my LH receptors, that seems to be of much concern from what I’ve read. Have you ever read of anyone actually doing this? It seems everyone talks about it, but I cant find anyone really saying they’ve fucked themselves up from HCG, and that includes pinning insane amount.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
well, how much testicular atrophy do you have?

if it’s not too bad, then i’d go with the EOD dosing and shorter protocol… but if you’re highly suppressed, then it might be better to go ED and a week longer.[/quote]

Also, I feel I must note that I have lost my libido, and its very hard to get an erection. I’m starting to fear an estrogen rebound? Im on 25mg of aromasin a day… should I increase or decrease?

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
well, how much testicular atrophy do you have?

if it’s not too bad, then i’d go with the EOD dosing and shorter protocol… but if you’re highly suppressed, then it might be better to go ED and a week longer.[/quote]

It’s really hard to tell, they havent shrunk a crazy amount, maybe a 40% loss but that’s just a guess. When I didn’t pin for those 3 weeks I think they started to come back just a little bit, and literally just a few days after I pinned for the last time, they felt a little smaller.

My only concern here is frying my LH receptors, that seems to be of much concern from what I’ve read. Have you ever read of anyone actually doing this? It seems everyone talks about it, but I cant find anyone really saying they’ve fucked themselves up from HCG, and that includes pinning insane amount. [/quote]

well, i’ve only heard of it happening at high doses…

[quote]BlackLabel wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
well, how much testicular atrophy do you have?

if it’s not too bad, then i’d go with the EOD dosing and shorter protocol… but if you’re highly suppressed, then it might be better to go ED and a week longer.[/quote]

Also, I feel I must note that I have lost my libido, and its very hard to get an erection. I’m starting to fear an estrogen rebound? Im on 25mg of aromasin a day… should I increase or decrease?[/quote]

are you on just aromasin right now, or HCG as well?

if it’s just aromasin, you prolly have low E, which means you can cut your dose in half, and see how that treats you… be prepared to bump it back up when you start HCG, though, as it typically increases aromatization…