Thoughts on Planning PCT

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
Interesting article. Yes, the progression of “T” levels during an after treatment is strange. The HCG clearly induced the testes to start producing Testosterone again. During this time the “top” of the HPTA should have remained suppressed. When HCG was ceased the testes were now stimulated anymore so Testosterone levels dropped initially but there was something that made the hypothalamus and pituitary to start working again? Any thoughts? Maybe the pituitary and/or hypothalamus got used to “seeing” LH (HCG, actually) and when it was taken away the contrast made it/them react?

Anyway, any reason not to like HCG aside from people taking too much and making their LH receptors insensitive to LH?

Don’t you think one would do well not to allow the testes to become atrophied? Isn’t it counterproductive to recovery?

Thanks and sorry about all the questions. This discussion is very interesting.[/quote]

i think what happened, was that even though the HCG kicked in the testes, the rest of the HPTA still wasn’t ready, and that’s why there was the lag time. i think using a SERM, or even just waiting it out, would have been better in that instance…

my main issues with HCG are the concerns over desensitization, and the user feel they are recovered when they’re not, and not following PCT through…

i’m basically going with a trade-off with my theory… preventing testicular atrophy might help recovery, but it also might delay it, with HCG overuse.

if one felt that they needed to use it, then i would use it close to PCT, and maybe even into the first week or so (along with Nolvaex and Aromasin)…that way one could obtain the benefit of the increased testicular function to go with the HPTA recovery…

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
Interesting article. Yes, the progression of “T” levels during an after treatment is strange. The HCG clearly induced the testes to start producing Testosterone again. During this time the “top” of the HPTA should have remained suppressed. When HCG was ceased the testes were now stimulated anymore so Testosterone levels dropped initially but there was something that made the hypothalamus and pituitary to start working again? Any thoughts? Maybe the pituitary and/or hypothalamus got used to “seeing” LH (HCG, actually) and when it was taken away the contrast made it/them react?

Anyway, any reason not to like HCG aside from people taking too much and making their LH receptors insensitive to LH?

Don’t you think one would do well not to allow the testes to become atrophied? Isn’t it counterproductive to recovery?

Thanks and sorry about all the questions. This discussion is very interesting.[/quote]

i think what happened, was that even though the HCG kicked in the testes, the rest of the HPTA still wasn’t ready, and that’s why there was the lag time. i think using a SERM, or even just waiting it out, would have been better in that instance…

my main issues with HCG are the concerns over desensitization, and the user feel they are recovered when they’re not, and not following PCT through…

i’m basically going with a trade-off with my theory… preventing testicular atrophy might help recovery, but it also might delay it, with HCG overuse.

if one felt that they needed to use it, then i would use it close to PCT, and maybe even into the first week or so (along with Nolvaex and Aromasin)…that way one could obtain the benefit of the increased testicular function to go with the HPTA recovery…[/quote]

Makes sense. What about using small doses during cycle so as to prevent atrophy but not enough to cause desensitization, say 100IU times per week?

[quote]eaboadar wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
Interesting article. Yes, the progression of “T” levels during an after treatment is strange. The HCG clearly induced the testes to start producing Testosterone again. During this time the “top” of the HPTA should have remained suppressed. When HCG was ceased the testes were now stimulated anymore so Testosterone levels dropped initially but there was something that made the hypothalamus and pituitary to start working again? Any thoughts? Maybe the pituitary and/or hypothalamus got used to “seeing” LH (HCG, actually) and when it was taken away the contrast made it/them react?

Anyway, any reason not to like HCG aside from people taking too much and making their LH receptors insensitive to LH?

Don’t you think one would do well not to allow the testes to become atrophied? Isn’t it counterproductive to recovery?

Thanks and sorry about all the questions. This discussion is very interesting.[/quote]

i think what happened, was that even though the HCG kicked in the testes, the rest of the HPTA still wasn’t ready, and that’s why there was the lag time. i think using a SERM, or even just waiting it out, would have been better in that instance…

my main issues with HCG are the concerns over desensitization, and the user feel they are recovered when they’re not, and not following PCT through…

i’m basically going with a trade-off with my theory… preventing testicular atrophy might help recovery, but it also might delay it, with HCG overuse.

if one felt that they needed to use it, then i would use it close to PCT, and maybe even into the first week or so (along with Nolvaex and Aromasin)…that way one could obtain the benefit of the increased testicular function to go with the HPTA recovery…[/quote]

Makes sense. What about using small doses during cycle so as to prevent atrophy but not enough to cause desensitization, say 100IU times per week?[/quote]

i think the current trend is 100-250 iu, eod…

but more importantly, i think when looking at HPTA suppression, we have to recognize that testosterone inhibits LH release, and also decreases sensitivity to GnRH. and estrogen also has an inhibitory effect on GnRH, and is also 200-fold more suppressive on LH than testosterone.

so, we want to increase testosterone to normal levels, but HCG might cause them to go too high, and result in additional suppression. additionally, there’s the concern over desensitization from the actual HCG. the key, is to get estrogen to a low level, and testosterone to a “normal level.”

so i think using a SERM with an AI makes this equation pretty simple… HCG just seems to make it too complicated, and possibly cause problems.

Another consideration for PCT is the taper, i.e test or stasis taper.

while i think a full taper is a bit complicated, i do think lowering androgens at the end of the cycle can be worthwhile… some might feel that it minimizes their gains, but retaining gains is what matters, and not just bloating up and down…

For example:

Week 1-8:
testosterone enanthate-1,000 mg/wk
nandralone-500 mg/wk

Week 9:
testosterone enanthate-750 mg/wk
nandralone-500 mg/wk

Week 10:
testosterone enanthate-500 mg/wk
nandralone-500 mg/wk

Week 11:
testosterone enanthate-500 mg/wk

Week 12:
testosterone enanthate-250 mg/wk

Week 15+
PCT

(we stop deca first, due to it’s absurdly long half life. and we cut the test dose in half at the end of the cycle, in order to prepare the body for lower androgen levels. 250 mg/wk is still pretty high, as normal production is something like 70 mg/wk, at best.)

Or,
Week 1-7
test prop-500 mg/wk
masteron-500 mg/wk

Week 8
test prop-250 mg/wk
masteron-250 mg/wk

Week 9+
PCT

(here we finish with reduced test and masteron (due to it’s ability to manage estrogen). we want to avoid any estrogen rebound, especially in PCT, where it can have disastrous effects.)

FWIW, i find the test/stasis taper interesting, but any exogenous hormone is going to suppress natural production, even something like anavar, which many claim causes little to no suppression. the theory that 25mg of test won’t cause suppression is ludicrous, as there are numerous studies showing otherwise (15 mg of anavar decreased testosterone by 37% in 5 days, 10 mg of winstrol decreased testosterone by 55% in 14 days, 7.5 mg of testosterone for 4 days reduced LH/FSH 40%, WHO studies using 200 mg/wk of test for male birth control, etc…).

and at the end of a cycle, when one has been undoubtedly suppressed for a long time, the concept is even more confounding…

But anyway, here’s a link to a taper thread, for those still interested: http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/test_taper_protocol_1?id=1990889&pageNo=0

Again, for those looking for hard data in planning their PCT’s, here are some links:

SERM’s:

http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/content/95/11/779.abstract?ijkey=28ff3cf884c4142d414e39f147ad83e37321ed33&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

HCG:

AI’s:

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2003-031279

1 Like

Great post. Confirms everything I’ve been reading about PCT reasoning. A lot of info here. Definitely going through again.

Edit this up neatly and make a sticky for sure!

Don’t think I saw this covered, so I’ll ask. Excuse me if it’s already been covered.

8 week cycle of Test E, 600 mg/wk, Taper off weeks 9 and 10
0.25 mg Arimidex EOD
250iu HCG 2x/week

I’ve got a bit of pre existing gyno; but want to minimize recovery time and minimize the effects of recovering, ie low libido, energy, etc until HPTA recovers.

Thoughts on a PCT including both Raloxifene and Tamoxifen? I’m not entirely positive how to dose the two when combined, or even if they should be combined. Would you just run raloxifene at 60 mg/day for a month, then run nolva for another month? Combine the two for the first month, then run nolva for another month or so?

Also, the gf and I are used to sex daily, even before this cycle (I’d done one cycle previously before her). Any recommendations to try and make sure I can still perform effectively on call during PCT and not raise suspicion? She does not know I’m on. I have Tadalafil on hand, 5 mg/day as needed, increase the dose as needed. Going to supplement with ZMA, DAA during the PCT. Going to switch over to heavier, shorter rep-ranges in hopes that that will help my natural test bounce back a little quicker as well.

Thanks for any input

[quote]PulsedEE wrote:
Don’t think I saw this covered, so I’ll ask. Excuse me if it’s already been covered.

8 week cycle of Test E, 600 mg/wk, Taper off weeks 9 and 10
0.25 mg Arimidex EOD
250iu HCG 2x/week

I’ve got a bit of pre existing gyno; but want to minimize recovery time and minimize the effects of recovering, ie low libido, energy, etc until HPTA recovers.

Thoughts on a PCT including both Raloxifene and Tamoxifen? I’m not entirely positive how to dose the two when combined, or even if they should be combined. Would you just run raloxifene at 60 mg/day for a month, then run nolva for another month? Combine the two for the first month, then run nolva for another month or so?

Also, the gf and I are used to sex daily, even before this cycle (I’d done one cycle previously before her). Any recommendations to try and make sure I can still perform effectively on call during PCT and not raise suspicion? She does not know I’m on. I have Tadalafil on hand, 5 mg/day as needed, increase the dose as needed. Going to supplement with ZMA, DAA during the PCT. Going to switch over to heavier, shorter rep-ranges in hopes that that will help my natural test bounce back a little quicker as well.

Thanks for any input[/quote]

sorry i missed this…i’ve been MIA from the board for a while.

if you’ve already got gyno, then i think it’s pretty likely to get worse on cycle. you could run Ralox and Aromasin prior to the cycle to see if you can get rid of some of it, or you can just deal with it on cycle…

i think Ralox is useful in PCT for a couple things… it doesn’t lower IGF-1 like the other SERMs (handy if you’re using hGH/peptides), it has a higher affinity for the ER in breast tissue (would be more effective for gyno), and it has a much shorter half-life (possibly better for a drug tested athlete).

however, mg for mg, Nolvadex is the best at raising testosterone levels.

based off what you said, i’d run PCT one of two ways…

Nolvadex-20 mg/day for up to 2 months
Aromasin-25 mg/day for 2 weeks

or

Raloxifene-60 mg/day for up to a month
Aromasin-25 mg/day for 2 weeks

i suppose which one is based off how bad your gyno is post cycle…

Tag

Worth a read:

https://www.uthsc.edu/endocrinology/documents/ch08-syllabus-Childress.pdf

What are your thoughts on PCT for compounds with active metabolites that stay in your system for long periods of time, causing prolonged side effects? Or should people simply avoid them if not planning to stay “on” indefinitely?

[quote]dt79 wrote:
What are your thoughts on PCT for compounds with active metabolites that stay in your system for long periods of time, causing prolonged side effects? Or should people simply avoid them if not planning to stay “on” indefinitely?[/quote]

what do you mean? like deca?

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
What are your thoughts on PCT for compounds with active metabolites that stay in your system for long periods of time, causing prolonged side effects? Or should people simply avoid them if not planning to stay “on” indefinitely?[/quote]

what do you mean? like deca?[/quote]

Yup.

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
What are your thoughts on PCT for compounds with active metabolites that stay in your system for long periods of time, causing prolonged side effects? Or should people simply avoid them if not planning to stay “on” indefinitely?[/quote]

what do you mean? like deca?[/quote]

Yup.
[/quote]

well, yeah, i guess it would be easier to stay on…

deca presents several different issues, in that it raises prolactin and has an absurdly long ester.

one needs to stop this about a month earlier than test e/cyp, or at least taper the dose down, in addition to running something to control prolactin. NPP would be easier to deal with, but it is still suppressive for a couple weeks, even though it’s got a much faster ester.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
What are your thoughts on PCT for compounds with active metabolites that stay in your system for long periods of time, causing prolonged side effects? Or should people simply avoid them if not planning to stay “on” indefinitely?[/quote]

what do you mean? like deca?[/quote]

Yup.
[/quote]

well, yeah, i guess it would be easier to stay on…

deca presents several different issues, in that it raises prolactin and has an absurdly long ester.

one needs to stop this about a month earlier than test e/cyp, or at least taper the dose down, in addition to running something to control prolactin. NPP would be easier to deal with, but it is still suppressive for a couple weeks, even though it’s got a much faster ester.

[/quote]

there’s definitely something else we don’t know about Deca going on. Persistent libido problems that last for years after a cycle despite bloodwork all coming back good are worryingly common

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]dt79 wrote:
What are your thoughts on PCT for compounds with active metabolites that stay in your system for long periods of time, causing prolonged side effects? Or should people simply avoid them if not planning to stay “on” indefinitely?[/quote]

what do you mean? like deca?[/quote]

Yup.
[/quote]

well, yeah, i guess it would be easier to stay on…

deca presents several different issues, in that it raises prolactin and has an absurdly long ester.

one needs to stop this about a month earlier than test e/cyp, or at least taper the dose down, in addition to running something to control prolactin. NPP would be easier to deal with, but it is still suppressive for a couple weeks, even though it’s got a much faster ester.

[/quote]

there’s definitely something else we don’t know about Deca going on. Persistent libido problems that last for years after a cycle despite bloodwork all coming back good are worryingly common
[/quote]

Agreed. Friends in real life have told me the same thing so it’s not just isolated cases online. I’m being told it’s because the metabolites stay in the system for months to more than a year after cessation.

Just came across this thread, what a good read.

i like this choice!

This is sticky material.