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Those Who Have Switched From AI To SERMS - Please Share Your Experiences

Hey guys, you have been real helpful, I appreciate that.
So let’s get started and of crouse first things first, I want to clarify that this topic is not about asking for differences on their properties and how they work, this all can be found by doing research and I have done my homework more or less.

So guys who have switched from ‘traditional’ AI’s like Arimidex and Aromasin to something ‘not typical’ - SERMS like Nolva, now many would probably say that it’s nonsense to do so and I would believe it, if not for one very well respected member and doctor doing this himself and explaining how it could be better than AI’s during cycles, I think you know who I’m talking about.

Now I’ll go to the point:

Please if you can and are willing to, share your experiences by answering some questions.

  1. What was the main point of you switching to SERM? Difficulties dialing in the dosage, crashing estrogen or something else?

  2. Are you a TRT guy? If so, do you ever do a blasting phases?

  3. What’s the biggest difference/differences you feel? Are you feeling better or worse?

  4. What’s your typical nolva dosage on your cycle? What kind of side effects do you feel if any?

  5. Do you still experience any high estrogen side effects? What about water retention? Prostate? Mood and Libido?

  6. Even theoretically it’s impossible, but everyones different and sometimes theory doesn’t equal practice. Any low estrogen side effects?

  7. What does your bloodwork say apart from higher estrogen, is it better?

  8. Anything more can you add?

Thank you for your time and good will.

I personally don’t prescribe to the use nolva instead of an AI on cycle UNLESS you are gyno prone. In which case it’s much better to use nolva to block gyno then to worry about tinkering an AI dose the whole cycle.

Other then that if it’s a test only cycle I don’t think anything else is needed if you get high E2 sides like limp dick then sure use an AI because nolva will do no good. But using AIs for bloat and itchy nipples or because “thats what Google said” makes no sense to me. Same as nolva using it because you want to prevent gyno when your not gyno prone to begin with just seems like extra unnecessary drugs IMO

Yes, I do understand and see the logic behind all of this. Nolva is not aromatase inhibitor it’s selective estrogen receptor modulator. What I don’t understand however, is how some member here use Nolva to eliminate high estrogen sides, I understand that serms block certain estrogen receptor sites and doesn’t allow estrogen to do it’s thing or should I say bad things in our bodies.

What I don’t know and can’t find the info on is, what sites exactly we all know gyno for example, but anything else? Like how about prostate, water retention (assuming person’s diet is balanced and calories are spot on).

Anyway, if estrogen is rendered useless in important receptor sites, then higher than normal estrogen in the body can’t do harm?

@yubs I know I’ve asked you something similar and I found what you said to be very interesting but would you please, of course if you don’t mind share some further knowledge on this?

I just don’t like adex at all, it’s either too much or not enough, so damn easy to crash.
That’s why I’m looking for an alternative ways to combat it, there gotta be more than one way, that’s why I found @physioLojik protocol to be exciting and very interesting, but some more details would be awesome, unfortunately he’s out of reach, but we have to respect him for what he does.

[quote=“lukiss96, post:1, topic:256733”]

  • What was the main point of you switching to SERM? Difficulties dialing in the dosage, crashing estrogen or something else?
    I went solely with nolva for the fact my e2 crashes so easily before and after trt.
  • Are you a TRT guy? If so, do you ever do a blasting phases?
    Yes I am a trt guy and yes I’m blasting. On my second blast currently.
  • What’s the biggest difference/differences you feel? Are you feeling better or worse?
    No reference. Never taken ai for e2 control
  • What’s your typical nolva dosage on your cycle? What kind of side effects do you feel if any?
    Despite sound advice I take 10 mg a day on 500mg of test e a week instead of the recommended 20 mg
  • Do you still experience any high estrogen side effects? What about water retention? Prostate? Mood and Libido?
    I havent noticed any negative side effects at all except acne on my back which is manageable
  • Even theoretically it’s impossible, but everyones different and sometimes theory doesn’t equal practice. Any low estrogen side effects?
    Only when i take DIM which also crashes my e2.
  • What does your bloodwork say apart from higher estrogen, is it better?
    I havent done bloodwork yet.[/quote]
    this is my experience
1 Like

Happy birthday! :slight_smile:

Thank you a lot, your help is greatly appreciated, now I’m really considereing to drop AI for good.

One more question:
How did you come up with nolva dosage? I mean you say recommended is 20mg, where can I read more on that? Maybe I’ve missed something important that doc written.

I’d be happy to chime in here but I’m not sure what I’m about to write is going to be anything but bro science; with that caveat out of the way here goes:
It’s my belief that high estrogen in the presence of equally high testosterone is to be expected (obvious right?). Users are faced with a number of methods of dealing with side effects of AAS use and each person has to choose the method that works best for them based on factors such as their past experiences with AAS, their own health history (are you gyno prone? Have you had pre-pubescent gyno? Are you obese?..).
For those folks who’ve been doing this for years I’m assuming you’ve already got protocols worked out based on trial and error and or the same approach I’m talking about.
My advice is generally geared towards first-times or novices; the guys that come here almost daily with screwed up plans given to them by their local dealer or equally misinformed gym partner who has no idea what their doing other than 'hey…I did this exact cycle and I’m fine so that means you should have the exact same results"
For these guys my advice is to run a simple Test E or C at somewhere between 300-500 mg/wk administered 2x weekly.
They should have blood tested before the cycle to have a baseline to refer back to later.
They should have Nolva on hand for PCT (and for E control if needed)
If they wish, having Adex also on hand is not a bad idea especially if we know they are prone to gyno.

As @physioLojik has said more times than I can remember your body is going to see all this extra T floating around and its natural response is to raise E correspondingly, this is homeostasis. This in and of itself is not a bad thing UNLESS that high E starts to manifest in ways you don’t like. I promise you’re certainly going to enjoy the joint sparing effects of high E…and I guarantee you’re going to enjoy it more than how you’d feel with crashed E.
“But what about my man tits? I don’t want gyno!”
No man wants boobs (on his chest). For guys who aren’t B&C I think the idea of gyno is highly unlikely when running sensible protocols so I wouldn’t add it in unless the user is simply paranoid OR starting to see symptoms (and after a blood test confirms high E). I see no reason to throw drugs at conditions that don’t exist and would again only recommend prophylactic use of Nolva for guys who are know to be gyno prone or borderline basket case paranoid.

Of course there are other symptoms of high E that you’ve mentioned (bloating, moodiness) that I don’t think Nolva would do a thing to treat (just guessing). In these cases I again would doubt that any of these conditions would present themselves during the sensible cycle I’ve outlined. If for some reason they did and the user wanted to treat those conditions then a little adex wouldn’t mean the end of the world (again after a blood test confirms high E).

“But I want to run something more than a ‘sensible cycle!’”
Great! Have fun! The same approach applies to you but I might suggest having some caber on hand as well based on the compound you plan on adding. Wait until sides present before deciding to throw more drugs into your body and only after a blood test confirms the condition, there’s no sense in taking Adex if it’s your prolactin that’s through the roof.

Here’s an example to make my case. I’m running a 600/600 cycle of Test C and EQ. Some people would tell me I should have upwards to of 1.5mg of adex in there to control my E. What’s my E level? 4.5 with a FT and TT both off the scale.

So my point is simply this (and I feel like I’m rambling now so I’ll make this short):
Use drugs to treat actual conditions that are present and then only use the minimal amount of the least damaging compound possible AFTER a blood test confirms your suspicions.
Take this approach until you’ve built a base of knowledge on YOUR body and use it as you move forward.

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Crystal clear post, makes a lot of sense and you explained everything like a teacher :smile:
And sorry for being another noob to bother you with obvious questions, but people like you are what makes this forum and community awesome.

Now I understand nolva is being used mainly for guys to control gyno if they are prone, it was developed for women breast cancer after all.

I still have to do couple more test only cycles to fully understand what measures I’ve to take to control high estrogen sides, going by feel and bloodwork combined and only then adding some meds to treat sides.

On my first and only cycle I had bloodwork done mid-cycle (6 weeks in):
I was on Test E 625mg/week (Monday and thursday - 2 injections);
Adex 1mg per week;
Testosterone - 2420 ng/dl;
Estradiol - 128pg/ml;

Had sides such as:
Moody and mood swings
A lot of water retention - not normal amount for me even when I did natty dirty bulking in my first year of lifting.
Libido decrease.

I have much more to learn and again guys like you are very helpful.

So what do you plan to do for your next cycle?

Originally I thought about Test 500mg/week + Equipoise 500mg/week.
It was when I was halfway through my first cycle, but now I’ve different thoughts.
I think I can gain more on just test, so it’s unecessary to throw in more AAS right now.

Now I see that I lack knowledge to do such cycle and test only was good apart from estrogen sides, I’ve gained about 12 clean pounds and my waist went down, which is good indicator that I’ve lost some body fat (waist from 34in to 33in) I’m also 6’1, actually closer to 6’2.

So my next cycle (probably):

  • 1-12 Test E 500mg/week (gonna front load this time)

  • 1-4 Dbol 20mg/ed (it’s just consideration, maybe I’ll save it for a rainy day later on)

I guess with the dbol I’ll have to do adex 0.5mg eod (luckily I bought it straight outta pharmacy, so no underdosed crap.)

Firstly what everyone seems to forget, or potentially never considered, is that different people have different levels of androgen aromatization and different degrees of sensitivity to the E hormone. So where no E management is needed on 500mg T for some, others will benefit tgofrom 10mg-40mg of tamoxifen or 12.5mg-100mg of clomiphene, same is true for the AIs.

As for the statement I read that an aromatase INHIBITOR is no good for bloat or itchy nipples, it beggars belief. They are effective against both. Significantly decreased E, less bloat, less attachment at the breast receptor. No… SERMs are no good for bloat. And as estrogens they create a ligand-receptor complex with the ER’s in the body and agonize some and antagonize others.

Just because something doesn’t make sense to you, doesn’t make it wrong.