T Nation

This is Israel





Oh and they just killed 1800 people in Gaza in a war that they initiated. Not to mention their ongoing crimes in the West Bank.

I'm curious how do the pro-Israelis here justify their positions? How do they sleep at night?


By making 400 threads.

Please spin your lies in one or two threads. This is getting silly.


I am not pro-Israel.

But you'd be silly to think that Israel "wants" this war.

Well, they do I guess. But I'm pretty sure they'd also want to just outright remove the Palestinians and just be done with this crap.

But the people who actually started the war are the Arabs who deny Israel's existence and have waged war after war and battles after battles in an attempt to remove them.

Did the Israeli have any actual claim to Israel now? I dunno. But anyone saying that Israel, and Israel alone, is clearly in the wrong are being silly imo.


No, no silly. It is clear Lou here is running for Senate, so you need to just throw appeals to emotion up and spin up a good case, that's all that matters is emotion...


Each of my threads has addressed a different subject admittedly with reference to the Israeli genocide in Gaza and ethnic cleansing in the West Bank but still distinct. This is the first one addressing the nature of the Israeli right. Did you read these links?


No the people who started the war are the Israeli's (http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/). Yes Hamas are bad people. But Israel are turning from unpleasant to evil.


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Three reasons.
1. Israel is supposed to be a proper country. We are always told how they are a democracy etc. It scares me that such acts could be carried out with 90% of a population supporting them - if this could happen in Israel could it happen in your country? And would the world just stand by and watch?

  1. The long term plight of the Palestinians is heart wrenching. Since 1947 when 700,000 either fled or were evicted from their homes they've been unable to return. In the West Bank an ethnic cleansing program has continued relentlessly since 1967 with no relief. In Gaza they are under a siege and every couple of years the Israelis decide to come in and I quote an Israeli soldier "cleanse" the place. Children are rounded up and kept in cages with no fair trial in the West Bank. I could go on but maybe watch this video instead?
  1. In the case of Israel the blood is directly on our hands. We send them the weapons they use to attack Palestine. The US continuously votes to protect Israel in the UN.


I am very curious as to what the alternative is in your eyes, lou?

Is it to take away the weapons; take down the walls and security fences; open up the borders and allow free movement; so that the Israelis can drink wine and break bread with their Hamas and Hezbollah Brothers and Sisters in the quiet serenity of a Kibbutz?

Or perhaps it's so that Israel can know the Peace and Tranquility of the rest of the Middle East; and know the Joy and Love that the Sunni and Shia have, one for another?

Do you think that an Ancient people holding on to a small strip of arid, oil-less land; surrounded by people sworn to their destruction; is the cause of all the carnage in the Middle East?

What exactly is your "Final Solution" to the Jewish Question?



  1. Russia is a democracy, too. Yes it can happen in any country.

  2. It didn't start all of a sudden. It's been a tit for tat with the other side stronger, with ever harshening attitudes and with all kind of cultural baggage. Normal human psyhcology. It's ugly.

  3. Are you invovlved in any way politically to try to alter this?


The sentence "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" sent 6 million people to the gas chamber include the grandparents of people I have known. Let us not forget that and let me be very very clear, there is no "Jewish question"! To try and conflate criticism of Israel with the kind of sick anti-Semitism that a certain other poster has displayed is just disgusting.

The Israel-Palestine solution is a huge question though. Not just for the Palestinians or the Israelis but for the region and the world. (How much anti-western Muslim extremism is fuelled by reaction to the ongoing crimes of the Israeli state? Not the only reason but certainly a factor and the more factors you take away the less people will fall for the extremists arguments.)

What is the answer? I don't rightly know. It is not easy.

A two-state solution has been ruled out by the actions of the Israelis for years (e.g. the settlement program in the West Bank which even Rabin did not stop) and now by the words of their prime minister. Also a two-state solution would probably just result in more wars down the road.

A one-state solution (as proposed by e.g. the new Israeli president) is tricky. Palestinian anger whilst justified would need to be seriously reigned in before it could be considered safe to just open up the borders. Furthermore the Israelis may be in general too racist to suffer living in the same country as the Palestinians. The Palestinians would need to be compensated for the gross injustices that have been inflicted upon them (seizure of land etc). Some quite serious Truth and Reconciliation hearings would be needed. Some of the Palestinian leadership (for example anyone that sent a suicide bomber) and a fair section of the IDF leadership and some of the Israel MK's would need to face trial. Also some of those that 'just followed orders' would need to be made examples of according to the Nuremberg principle.

In the meantime. Stop arming the Israelis. Stop sending them money. Boycott at the very least the settlements. Send in UN peacekeepers to Gaza as the Palestinians have asked. Help Hamas to stop the other groups in Gaza firing rockets as they were trying to do prior to this particular Israeli started war. Open up the Egyptian border to Gaza and the sea to trade. Confront both the Israelis and the Palestinians on those preaching hate amongst them. Force Israeli and Palestinian schoolchildren to interact (under very controlled conditions at first). Oh and Israel as by far the stronger party has to take the first move and follow through consistently.

Final point - Oil-less it is, gas-less it may not be. Gaza itself apparently sits on some sizeable gas reserves. (I only saw this claim yesterday and have not fully followed the citations on the articles yet which were in the pro-Palestinian media so I'm not yet convinced.)


  1. Russia is a joke of democracy with no kind of free press. We should not try to live up to the Russian model.

  2. Yes but Israel is the stronger party and it falls upon the stronger party to take first action in situations like this.

  3. Not yet.


Not a US citizen myself so the Senate might be a bridge too far, thanks for the nomination though :stuck_out_tongue:

Can you do me a favour and read those links I posted? It won't take more than 5 minutes of your day to read the first one at least?


I'm not educated enough on the situation in Israel to comment on it, but I do think it would be amusing to go to a political website's discussion forum and start a bunch of threads about lifting weights.


Well if the political website had a bodybuilding sub-forum this might be fairly reasonable behaviour? This is the "Politics and World Issues" section after all.

As for knowledge about the situation read the Israeli press, the UK press and the wikipedia articles on e.g. the settlement program. Bear in mind that both sides infect the news with some serious propaganda (reference to Israeli propaganda methods here http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israelgaza-conflict-the-secret-report-that-helps-israelis-to-hide-facts-9630765.html - the Palestinians seem to just rely on dying and getting mistreated to provide theirs).


I thought this one in particular was very interesting. It's a great example of why any halfway intelligent person has absolutely no respect left for journalism or journalists.

"Israeli Professor: Rape Hamas Militants' Mothers and Sisters to Deter Terrorist Attacks"

This tells me that an Israeli professor says that we should rape the mothers and sisters of Hamas.

"The only thing that could deter a suicide bomber is knowing that if caught, his sister or his mother would be raped."

"It sounds very bad, but that's the Middle East," he continued. "You have to understand the culture in which we live. The only thing that deters [Hamas leaders] is a threat to the connection between their heads and their shoulders."

"I'm not talking about what we should or shouldn't do. I'm talking about the facts. The only thing that deters a suicide bomber is the knowledge that if he pulls the trigger or blows himself up, his sister will be raped. That's all. That's the only thing that will bring him back home, in order to preserve his sister's honor."

So those are the actual quotes from the professor. He's talking about it in an academic sense, telling people about the mind-frame of a terrorist.

This is a total non story.

Your other articles weren't quite that overt, but they were still kinda rubbish.

What do you think war is lou? "Annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters" was repeated in several of the articles like it was the end of the universe or something. That's what war is dude. That's what it always has been and always will be. That's what goes on all over the world where armed conflict occurs. Yeah it's terrible. It's the worst thing in the world, but it's been known since the human race has existed, so spare me the mock surprise.


Spare me the mock righteousness while you're at it rofl. Even "pro-Israelis" here aren't actually Israelis except for Jewbacca. We're all just fuckin Americans on the other side of the world. Regardless of where we think the moral high ground lies or what the political/societal/geographical outcomes of this conflict should be, we're still ridiculously far removed from the actual issue. So I'm sure we sleep just fine lol. Have you ever even experienced any true hardship? Do you even know what should constitute having trouble sleeping at night? Get over the hyperbole man lol.


Yes some of the articles are a little hysterical that is why I added the Times of Israel article which is better than the Daily Fail one. But just read the words coming from the actual Israeli MKs and academics proposing their solution to the Palestinian Problem. These solutions include: rape, ethnic cleansing and what sounds suspiciously like (that British invention in the Boer War) concentration camps. How is that not interesting? It adds some perspective on what the IDF are doing right now does it not?


You are aware how much money your government gives to Israel? You are aware where their weapons come from? Spare me the bollocks.


No not really. I mean you just used the words "rape, ethnic cleansing, and concentration camps" in that post and I'm not drawing conclusions about you wanting to do those things.

The only interesting part is the camp bit and the conquest type movement to get Gaza under control. You'd have to be a complete moron to put any stock in Israelis engaging in some kind of mass rape and ethnic cleansing endeavor though lol.