T Nation

This Guy's 'Theory' on Steroid Use


#97

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

I suppose ultimately it depends on the value placed on muscle size and strength. I personally just find it silly that some one would be so vain, not an attack, that they would honestly risk wrecking their bodies to get a few more inches or 50 more lbs. when their efforts don’t take them anywhere other than in front of their own mirror. It’s not like they have to be the biggest man on the line, have the best bicep peak to win a sponsorship et cetera. [/quote]

You also don’t need the biggest house, the flashiest car, or the latest outfit. These are vanities…but these are vanities that people partake in daily and glorify.

The attention to bodybuilding as if that is more shallow than spending money on shiny rims makes no sense at all.

Vain? yes. What the hell is wrong with that?

No offense, but someone could make that argument about any of us who have built ourselves to any point that would be considered extreme whether they used steroids or not. I don’t NEED 20" arms to do my job.

Luckily my job does not define me.

Your stance is one of those who has never been all that big and never actually lived the lifestyle.

I LOVE making changes in my physique and weight lifting. It is something I am passionate about. I wouldn’t expect a normal person to understand why I’m still working on muscle mass. They thought I was big 2 years after I started.

Now, I know you are aiming that st steroid users, but again, most of the risks you probably think you know about are likely not completely true…and many of these top pros do go to doctors regularly…so what is the issue?

Bodybuilders…the guys who are the real gym rats…are not normal and never have been.

They also usually don’t want to be.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying but it still boils down to risk vs. reward, I would lump bodybuilders in the category that steroid use can manifest an outcome with meaning in competition. We don’t disagree.[/quote]

Do you drink, smoke, or do recreational drugs such as coke?

I’d say the risk vs reward is significantly higher for those who do these, than for the average steroid user.

[/quote]I would say let’s place qualifiable values on rewards. Listen, I’m not bashing. To each his own value. Just keep that in mind and I’m happy to have a real debate.
[/quote]
Ok. Fine.

I like apples.[/quote]
Cocaine high vs. extra inch on arms = debateable reward value.

Metered hit vs. injecting thousands of times more testosterone than natural in your body with no labwork, no monitered bio-feedback loops (correct terminology?) and no way to meet potential side effects head on until they are happening = greater safety for cocaine.[/quote]

Are you talking use or abuse, HG? Because i’m just speaking of the average user of either.

The average test cycle wouldn’t typically have very many side effects and the ones that do pop up, are generally mild.

How many people have died from a test overdose?

[/quote]
If we are discussing moderate use, how many people have died from a cocaine overdose?

Worst case a nose bleed in moderation.

Steroids, who knows. Nobody, if not doctor administered and monitored. And that is the problem. Each individual has a slightly different physiology and what may be just fine for one can absolutely cause bitch tits and baldness for another, even in moderation.

Actual medical folk feel free to weigh in.

Balls to the wall use both are horrible but the cocaine will be more fun for sure.
[/quote]

Cocaine overdose = a ton, I have taken care of 22 year olds with Heart Attacks from Cocaine.

Test Overdose = serious gyno, acne, and itty bitty balls

We use cocaine in the medical field in hospitals, liquid cocaine is used to vasoconstrict the blood vessels, however it is not prescribed for someone for home use.

Test is prescribed for home use, because it has been deemed safe enough to be set home.[/quote]

I am a little amazed at the risk of acne being compared to the risk of instant heart attack and death from cocaine.

Seriously, for anyone to hold that stance, it means you know so little about the subject you should just keep quiet.[/quote]

Unfortunately, “Ignore” doesn’t block quoted material.


#98

[quote]SteelyD wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

I suppose ultimately it depends on the value placed on muscle size and strength. I personally just find it silly that some one would be so vain, not an attack, that they would honestly risk wrecking their bodies to get a few more inches or 50 more lbs. when their efforts don’t take them anywhere other than in front of their own mirror. It’s not like they have to be the biggest man on the line, have the best bicep peak to win a sponsorship et cetera. [/quote]

You also don’t need the biggest house, the flashiest car, or the latest outfit. These are vanities…but these are vanities that people partake in daily and glorify.

The attention to bodybuilding as if that is more shallow than spending money on shiny rims makes no sense at all.

Vain? yes. What the hell is wrong with that?

No offense, but someone could make that argument about any of us who have built ourselves to any point that would be considered extreme whether they used steroids or not. I don’t NEED 20" arms to do my job.

Luckily my job does not define me.

Your stance is one of those who has never been all that big and never actually lived the lifestyle.

I LOVE making changes in my physique and weight lifting. It is something I am passionate about. I wouldn’t expect a normal person to understand why I’m still working on muscle mass. They thought I was big 2 years after I started.

Now, I know you are aiming that st steroid users, but again, most of the risks you probably think you know about are likely not completely true…and many of these top pros do go to doctors regularly…so what is the issue?

Bodybuilders…the guys who are the real gym rats…are not normal and never have been.

They also usually don’t want to be.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying but it still boils down to risk vs. reward, I would lump bodybuilders in the category that steroid use can manifest an outcome with meaning in competition. We don’t disagree.[/quote]

Do you drink, smoke, or do recreational drugs such as coke?

I’d say the risk vs reward is significantly higher for those who do these, than for the average steroid user.

[/quote]I would say let’s place qualifiable values on rewards. Listen, I’m not bashing. To each his own value. Just keep that in mind and I’m happy to have a real debate.
[/quote]
Ok. Fine.

I like apples.[/quote]
Cocaine high vs. extra inch on arms = debateable reward value.

Metered hit vs. injecting thousands of times more testosterone than natural in your body with no labwork, no monitered bio-feedback loops (correct terminology?) and no way to meet potential side effects head on until they are happening = greater safety for cocaine.[/quote]

Are you talking use or abuse, HG? Because i’m just speaking of the average user of either.

The average test cycle wouldn’t typically have very many side effects and the ones that do pop up, are generally mild.

How many people have died from a test overdose?

[/quote]
If we are discussing moderate use, how many people have died from a cocaine overdose?

Worst case a nose bleed in moderation.

Steroids, who knows. Nobody, if not doctor administered and monitored. And that is the problem. Each individual has a slightly different physiology and what may be just fine for one can absolutely cause bitch tits and baldness for another, even in moderation.

Actual medical folk feel free to weigh in.

Balls to the wall use both are horrible but the cocaine will be more fun for sure.
[/quote]

Cocaine overdose = a ton, I have taken care of 22 year olds with Heart Attacks from Cocaine.

Test Overdose = serious gyno, acne, and itty bitty balls

We use cocaine in the medical field in hospitals, liquid cocaine is used to vasoconstrict the blood vessels, however it is not prescribed for someone for home use.

Test is prescribed for home use, because it has been deemed safe enough to be set home.[/quote]

I am a little amazed at the risk of acne being compared to the risk of instant heart attack and death from cocaine.

Seriously, for anyone to hold that stance, it means you know so little about the subject you should just keep quiet.[/quote]

Unfortunately, “Ignore” doesn’t block quoted material.
[/quote]

Nope sorry Steely forgot to tell you that.


#99

Some of you have talked about doing “some cycles”. Wouldn’t you end losing the benefit, in this case, mass and strength, over time?


#100

I view it a lot as “bang for the buck”

I have limited financial resources, and would like to get the most that I can for what I spend.

For example, a lot of people “tune” their import cars for performance, working hard to get 10-15 more horsepower from the stock engine.

I would rather just do the equivalent to this…


#101

[quote]pushharder wrote:
AAS are nothing more than “supplements” that happen to work. Effectively.[/quote]

Hahaha!!! And probably the best behind fiber and vitamin c.

I seriously question the sanity of people spending hundreds per month supplements and get very minimal results.


#102

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
AAS are nothing more than “supplements” that happen to work. Effectively.[/quote]

Hahaha!!! And probably the best behind fiber and vitamin c.

I seriously question the sanity of people spending hundreds per month supplements and get very minimal results.[/quote]


#103

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

I suppose ultimately it depends on the value placed on muscle size and strength. I personally just find it silly that some one would be so vain, not an attack, that they would honestly risk wrecking their bodies to get a few more inches or 50 more lbs. when their efforts don’t take them anywhere other than in front of their own mirror. It’s not like they have to be the biggest man on the line, have the best bicep peak to win a sponsorship et cetera. [/quote]

You also don’t need the biggest house, the flashiest car, or the latest outfit. These are vanities…but these are vanities that people partake in daily and glorify.

The attention to bodybuilding as if that is more shallow than spending money on shiny rims makes no sense at all.

Vain? yes. What the hell is wrong with that?

No offense, but someone could make that argument about any of us who have built ourselves to any point that would be considered extreme whether they used steroids or not. I don’t NEED 20" arms to do my job.

Luckily my job does not define me.

Your stance is one of those who has never been all that big and never actually lived the lifestyle.

I LOVE making changes in my physique and weight lifting. It is something I am passionate about. I wouldn’t expect a normal person to understand why I’m still working on muscle mass. They thought I was big 2 years after I started.

Now, I know you are aiming that st steroid users, but again, most of the risks you probably think you know about are likely not completely true…and many of these top pros do go to doctors regularly…so what is the issue?

Bodybuilders…the guys who are the real gym rats…are not normal and never have been.

They also usually don’t want to be.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying but it still boils down to risk vs. reward, I would lump bodybuilders in the category that steroid use can manifest an outcome with meaning in competition. We don’t disagree.[/quote]

Do you drink, smoke, or do recreational drugs such as coke?

I’d say the risk vs reward is significantly higher for those who do these, than for the average steroid user.

[/quote]I would say let’s place qualifiable values on rewards. Listen, I’m not bashing. To each his own value. Just keep that in mind and I’m happy to have a real debate.
[/quote]
Ok. Fine.

I like apples.[/quote]
Cocaine high vs. extra inch on arms = debateable reward value.

Metered hit vs. injecting thousands of times more testosterone than natural in your body with no labwork, no monitered bio-feedback loops (correct terminology?) and no way to meet potential side effects head on until they are happening = greater safety for cocaine.[/quote]

Are you talking use or abuse, HG? Because i’m just speaking of the average user of either.

The average test cycle wouldn’t typically have very many side effects and the ones that do pop up, are generally mild.

How many people have died from a test overdose?

[/quote]
If we are discussing moderate use, how many people have died from a cocaine overdose?

Worst case a nose bleed in moderation.

Steroids, who knows. Nobody, if not doctor administered and monitored. And that is the problem. Each individual has a slightly different physiology and what may be just fine for one can absolutely cause bitch tits and baldness for another, even in moderation.

Actual medical folk feel free to weigh in.

Balls to the wall use both are horrible but the cocaine will be more fun for sure.

[/quote]
Ok, moderate use then. Nobody has died from moderate coke useage? I’d be willing to bet that there has been.

What my point was going to be, originally, was that you have a pretty cavalier attitude towards rec/illegal drug use. And yet, when it comes to steroids, you want to be responsible and even go through a doctor IF you decide to ever go that route.

Do you not see the hypocrisy?[/quote]
The fallacy is that the reward for one is greater than the other in the individuals mind and not universally. My point was that in my opinion with out a contract of some sort based on muscles or strength, the value of juicing is nil. In my mind the risk > the value. I can bust ass a little longer, eat a little more, drink a little less and put the same muscle on as I can with moderate AAS use, which we are discussing. Extreme use still another story.

If it’s a struggle against self to grow, juice just helps you cut corners. Not bashing but for me it’s like playing the dreaded video games with cheat codes. Lots of people play with cheat codes but it cheapens the value for sure.

[/quote]

Re the bust ass a little longer part, I have done that, to the point where it seriously started to bring down the fun in my life. It was a test to see what I could achieve and I don’t regret doing it. However, I would say the return on investment from moderate usage is much higher than busting a little more ass. That is a guess admittedly, as I have never used, but people I knew who did use and followed a moderate bodybuilding lifestyle, achieved a physique in the same range as mine. Looking at the effort they put in vs my own, it was not even close.

I now look at it much differently, as all something you can have in your toolbox to achieve a particular end.

Massage, foam rolling, supplements, stretching, NSAIDs, ice, proper warmup, varying degrees of dietary strictness and manipulation, varying degrees of the amount and timing of sleep. It can go on and on, and yes, with enough time, effort and intelligent planning, you could equal the results from a small cycle. But if you don’t have to, why? Is it cheating to drive when you could run or walk to most of those places, or is it just trying to squeeze more out of life?

Every once in a while I wonder what I could have done if I would have been willing to just a small cycle of gear in to the mix. I actually kind of regret it now as I am in the same position as others in that the legal risks are too great.

You have stated that you are very competitive, is that against yourself, or just others? Have you ever wanted to see what your body was capable of? If you have a “good enough” attitude with regards to your body, and not the continual striving to look better, lift more than before attitude that others posting here do, you won’t ever understand.

That’s not a judgement on your values or anything, but coming from that place, the reward is greater than the health risk. Especially when speaking about moderate use.


#104

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

I suppose ultimately it depends on the value placed on muscle size and strength. I personally just find it silly that some one would be so vain, not an attack, that they would honestly risk wrecking their bodies to get a few more inches or 50 more lbs. when their efforts don’t take them anywhere other than in front of their own mirror. It’s not like they have to be the biggest man on the line, have the best bicep peak to win a sponsorship et cetera. [/quote]

You also don’t need the biggest house, the flashiest car, or the latest outfit. These are vanities…but these are vanities that people partake in daily and glorify.

The attention to bodybuilding as if that is more shallow than spending money on shiny rims makes no sense at all.

Vain? yes. What the hell is wrong with that?

No offense, but someone could make that argument about any of us who have built ourselves to any point that would be considered extreme whether they used steroids or not. I don’t NEED 20" arms to do my job.

Luckily my job does not define me.

Your stance is one of those who has never been all that big and never actually lived the lifestyle.

I LOVE making changes in my physique and weight lifting. It is something I am passionate about. I wouldn’t expect a normal person to understand why I’m still working on muscle mass. They thought I was big 2 years after I started.

Now, I know you are aiming that st steroid users, but again, most of the risks you probably think you know about are likely not completely true…and many of these top pros do go to doctors regularly…so what is the issue?

Bodybuilders…the guys who are the real gym rats…are not normal and never have been.

They also usually don’t want to be.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying but it still boils down to risk vs. reward, I would lump bodybuilders in the category that steroid use can manifest an outcome with meaning in competition. We don’t disagree.[/quote]

Do you drink, smoke, or do recreational drugs such as coke?

I’d say the risk vs reward is significantly higher for those who do these, than for the average steroid user.

[/quote]I would say let’s place qualifiable values on rewards. Listen, I’m not bashing. To each his own value. Just keep that in mind and I’m happy to have a real debate.
[/quote]
Ok. Fine.

I like apples.[/quote]
Cocaine high vs. extra inch on arms = debateable reward value.

Metered hit vs. injecting thousands of times more testosterone than natural in your body with no labwork, no monitered bio-feedback loops (correct terminology?) and no way to meet potential side effects head on until they are happening = greater safety for cocaine.[/quote]

Are you talking use or abuse, HG? Because i’m just speaking of the average user of either.

The average test cycle wouldn’t typically have very many side effects and the ones that do pop up, are generally mild.

How many people have died from a test overdose?

[/quote]
If we are discussing moderate use, how many people have died from a cocaine overdose?

Worst case a nose bleed in moderation.

Steroids, who knows. Nobody, if not doctor administered and monitored. And that is the problem. Each individual has a slightly different physiology and what may be just fine for one can absolutely cause bitch tits and baldness for another, even in moderation.

Actual medical folk feel free to weigh in.

Balls to the wall use both are horrible but the cocaine will be more fun for sure.
[/quote]

Cocaine overdose = a ton, I have taken care of 22 year olds with Heart Attacks from Cocaine.

Test Overdose = serious gyno, acne, and itty bitty balls

We use cocaine in the medical field in hospitals, liquid cocaine is used to vasoconstrict the blood vessels, however it is not prescribed for someone for home use.

Test is prescribed for home use, because it has been deemed safe enough to be set home.[/quote]

I am a little amazed at the risk of acne being compared to the risk of instant heart attack and death from cocaine.

Seriously, for anyone to hold that stance, it means you know so little about the subject you should just keep quiet.[/quote]

First of all prohormones carry a big risk of permanently damaging your HPTA and hindering testosterone production they are less safe than real steroids.
Steroids have more risks than acne, shrinking testes and gyno, roid rage.
Peliosis hepatitis is a major risk (bloody cysts in the liver)and high blood presure and also changes in blood lipids which can lead to atherosclerosis and heart disease are real risks. (source: Drugs society and Human behavior 2009)

That guy in the video is dumb for thinking he is giving profound knowledge. everyone who has half a brain on this site recommends training seriously for at least a few years and getting past the beginner stage before starting to use steroids.


#105

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:

First of all prohormones carry a big risk of permanently damaging your HPTA and hindering testosterone production they are less safe than real steroids.[/quote]

? I just related steroid risks to risks of cocaine use. At least stay on that topic. Even with that, how does needing HRT equal needing a CASKET?

[quote]

Steroids have more risks than acne, shrinking testes and gyno, roid rage.
Peliosis hepatitis is a major risk (bloody cysts in the liver) and also changes in blood lipids which can lead to atherosclerosis and heart disease are real risks.[/quote]

Uh, yeah…LONG TERM risks associated with abuse usually for several years. To relate that to someone dying in one night because of cocaine doesn’t make sense.

Also peliosis hepatitis isn’t even a common disorder.

[quote]

That guy in the video is dumb for thinking he is giving profound knowledge. everyone who has half a brain on this site recommends training seriously for at least a few years and getting past the beginner stage before starting to use steroids.[/quote]

I don’t think anyone here gives a shit what the guy says in that video.

I really don’t even see why that was posted here as if his opinion is important.


#106

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

I suppose ultimately it depends on the value placed on muscle size and strength. I personally just find it silly that some one would be so vain, not an attack, that they would honestly risk wrecking their bodies to get a few more inches or 50 more lbs. when their efforts don’t take them anywhere other than in front of their own mirror. It’s not like they have to be the biggest man on the line, have the best bicep peak to win a sponsorship et cetera. [/quote]

You also don’t need the biggest house, the flashiest car, or the latest outfit. These are vanities…but these are vanities that people partake in daily and glorify.

The attention to bodybuilding as if that is more shallow than spending money on shiny rims makes no sense at all.

Vain? yes. What the hell is wrong with that?

No offense, but someone could make that argument about any of us who have built ourselves to any point that would be considered extreme whether they used steroids or not. I don’t NEED 20" arms to do my job.

Luckily my job does not define me.

Your stance is one of those who has never been all that big and never actually lived the lifestyle.

I LOVE making changes in my physique and weight lifting. It is something I am passionate about. I wouldn’t expect a normal person to understand why I’m still working on muscle mass. They thought I was big 2 years after I started.

Now, I know you are aiming that st steroid users, but again, most of the risks you probably think you know about are likely not completely true…and many of these top pros do go to doctors regularly…so what is the issue?

Bodybuilders…the guys who are the real gym rats…are not normal and never have been.

They also usually don’t want to be.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying but it still boils down to risk vs. reward, I would lump bodybuilders in the category that steroid use can manifest an outcome with meaning in competition. We don’t disagree.[/quote]

Do you drink, smoke, or do recreational drugs such as coke?

I’d say the risk vs reward is significantly higher for those who do these, than for the average steroid user.

[/quote]I would say let’s place qualifiable values on rewards. Listen, I’m not bashing. To each his own value. Just keep that in mind and I’m happy to have a real debate.
[/quote]
Ok. Fine.

I like apples.[/quote]
Cocaine high vs. extra inch on arms = debateable reward value.

Metered hit vs. injecting thousands of times more testosterone than natural in your body with no labwork, no monitered bio-feedback loops (correct terminology?) and no way to meet potential side effects head on until they are happening = greater safety for cocaine.[/quote]

Are you talking use or abuse, HG? Because i’m just speaking of the average user of either.

The average test cycle wouldn’t typically have very many side effects and the ones that do pop up, are generally mild.

How many people have died from a test overdose?

[/quote]
If we are discussing moderate use, how many people have died from a cocaine overdose?

Worst case a nose bleed in moderation.

Steroids, who knows. Nobody, if not doctor administered and monitored. And that is the problem. Each individual has a slightly different physiology and what may be just fine for one can absolutely cause bitch tits and baldness for another, even in moderation.

Actual medical folk feel free to weigh in.

Balls to the wall use both are horrible but the cocaine will be more fun for sure.
[/quote]

Cocaine overdose = a ton, I have taken care of 22 year olds with Heart Attacks from Cocaine.

Test Overdose = serious gyno, acne, and itty bitty balls

We use cocaine in the medical field in hospitals, liquid cocaine is used to vasoconstrict the blood vessels, however it is not prescribed for someone for home use.

Test is prescribed for home use, because it has been deemed safe enough to be set home.[/quote]

I am a little amazed at the risk of acne being compared to the risk of instant heart attack and death from cocaine.

Seriously, for anyone to hold that stance, it means you know so little about the subject you should just keep quiet.[/quote]

First of all prohormones carry a big risk of permanently damaging your HPTA and hindering testosterone production they are less safe than real steroids.
Steroids have more risks than acne, shrinking testes and gyno, roid rage.
Peliosis hepatitis is a major risk (bloody cysts in the liver)and high blood presure and also changes in blood lipids which can lead to atherosclerosis and heart disease are real risks. (source: Drugs society and Human behavior 2009)

That guy in the video is dumb for thinking he is giving profound knowledge. everyone who has half a brain on this site recommends training seriously for at least a few years and getting past the beginner stage before starting to use steroids.[/quote]


#107

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:

First of all prohormones carry a big risk of permanently damaging your HPTA and hindering testosterone production they are less safe than real steroids.[/quote]

? I just related steroid risks to risks of cocaine use. At least stay on that topic. Even with that, how does needing HRT equal needing a CASKET?

[quote]

Steroids have more risks than acne, shrinking testes and gyno, roid rage.
Peliosis hepatitis is a major risk (bloody cysts in the liver) and also changes in blood lipids which can lead to atherosclerosis and heart disease are real risks.[/quote]

Uh, yeah…LONG TERM risks associated with abuse usually for several years. To relate that to someone dying in one night because of cocaine doesn’t make sense.

Also peliosis hepatitis isn’t even a common disorder.

Hey professor I quoted the wrong person I was meaning to respond to lnname he asked for an opinion on the video sorry.


#108

ok


#109

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]imhungry wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

I suppose ultimately it depends on the value placed on muscle size and strength. I personally just find it silly that some one would be so vain, not an attack, that they would honestly risk wrecking their bodies to get a few more inches or 50 more lbs. when their efforts don’t take them anywhere other than in front of their own mirror. It’s not like they have to be the biggest man on the line, have the best bicep peak to win a sponsorship et cetera. [/quote]

You also don’t need the biggest house, the flashiest car, or the latest outfit. These are vanities…but these are vanities that people partake in daily and glorify.

The attention to bodybuilding as if that is more shallow than spending money on shiny rims makes no sense at all.

Vain? yes. What the hell is wrong with that?

No offense, but someone could make that argument about any of us who have built ourselves to any point that would be considered extreme whether they used steroids or not. I don’t NEED 20" arms to do my job.

Luckily my job does not define me.

Your stance is one of those who has never been all that big and never actually lived the lifestyle.

I LOVE making changes in my physique and weight lifting. It is something I am passionate about. I wouldn’t expect a normal person to understand why I’m still working on muscle mass. They thought I was big 2 years after I started.

Now, I know you are aiming that st steroid users, but again, most of the risks you probably think you know about are likely not completely true…and many of these top pros do go to doctors regularly…so what is the issue?

Bodybuilders…the guys who are the real gym rats…are not normal and never have been.

They also usually don’t want to be.[/quote]
I hear what you are saying but it still boils down to risk vs. reward, I would lump bodybuilders in the category that steroid use can manifest an outcome with meaning in competition. We don’t disagree.[/quote]

Do you drink, smoke, or do recreational drugs such as coke?

I’d say the risk vs reward is significantly higher for those who do these, than for the average steroid user.

[/quote]I would say let’s place qualifiable values on rewards. Listen, I’m not bashing. To each his own value. Just keep that in mind and I’m happy to have a real debate.
[/quote]
Ok. Fine.

I like apples.[/quote]
Cocaine high vs. extra inch on arms = debateable reward value.

Metered hit vs. injecting thousands of times more testosterone than natural in your body with no labwork, no monitered bio-feedback loops (correct terminology?) and no way to meet potential side effects head on until they are happening = greater safety for cocaine.[/quote]

Are you talking use or abuse, HG? Because i’m just speaking of the average user of either.

The average test cycle wouldn’t typically have very many side effects and the ones that do pop up, are generally mild.

How many people have died from a test overdose?

[/quote]
If we are discussing moderate use, how many people have died from a cocaine overdose?

Worst case a nose bleed in moderation.

Steroids, who knows. Nobody, if not doctor administered and monitored. And that is the problem. Each individual has a slightly different physiology and what may be just fine for one can absolutely cause bitch tits and baldness for another, even in moderation.

Actual medical folk feel free to weigh in.

Balls to the wall use both are horrible but the cocaine will be more fun for sure.
[/quote]

Cocaine overdose = a ton, I have taken care of 22 year olds with Heart Attacks from Cocaine.

Test Overdose = serious gyno, acne, and itty bitty balls

We use cocaine in the medical field in hospitals, liquid cocaine is used to vasoconstrict the blood vessels, however it is not prescribed for someone for home use.

Test is prescribed for home use, because it has been deemed safe enough to be set home.[/quote]

I am a little amazed at the risk of acne being compared to the risk of instant heart attack and death from cocaine.

Seriously, for anyone to hold that stance, it means you know so little about the subject you should just keep quiet.[/quote]

In the discussion with IH, we were talking about “moderate use” which was loosely defined.

Derek interjected with “overdose” which is certainly a different story than moderate use.

You extrapolated your comment from Dereks insight and put it back on the premise between IH and I, a logical fallacy.

If you want to debate lets debate. I’m staying on track here like you’ve asked. Don’t you start in with assumptive conjecture unless you want to go that route which is fine too, ultimately I’m passing time but don’t get mad if I do it better.

I am fine with debating on the up and up though. Keep emotional, knee jerk reactions out of it. I’m not judging at all ftr. Ive been very clear the whole time that I understand why someone would use and have even considered it. Bigger picture it is nobodies right to tell anybody what they can or can’t do with their own body imo. I will be obtaining a dr. prescrption for TRT at some point, also discussed.

Anyways, if you do want to debate, not only do we have to identify and qualify values and risks, we also need to put in to practice the Ceteris Paribus principle.

Or, if you just want to throw opinions back and forth on what value outweighs what risk for each of us personally, we’ve already done that. Opinions are like assholes anyways, amiright? “lolcat”

So, do you want to debate or just converse loosely around opinions? You can’t slam me for one, ask for another and slam that too. Another fallacy.

FTR, an old roomate of mine was a steroid monkey. He would leave fucking needles laying around some times. More than a handful of friends played college football, one plays pro baseball now. I may not be a 350 pound behemoth nor want to be but I was pretty “jockish” growing up, as most t-nationers undoubtedly were. This shit isn’t a fox news mystery to me.

They are readily available both on the black market and at numerous clinics all around our fine city.

Anyways, clearly define risks and rewards, let’s come to a common ground on definitions to eliminate biased opinion, keep apples to apples (ceteris paribus) and lets debate.

Or, do your thing and don’t break yourself on my opinion. I’m not judging.


#110

^ Okay moderate use Cocaine = Left Ventricular Hypertrophy leading to Congestive heart Failure in a pretty damn quick amount of time. When I was working cardiac rehab I had some guys who were on the heart transplant list in there late 30’s from moderate use for years in there 20’s.


#111

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
^ Okay moderate use Cocaine = Left Ventricular Hypertrophy leading to Congestive heart Failure in a pretty damn quick amount of time. When I was working cardiac rehab I had some guys who were on the heart transplant list in there late 30’s from moderate use for years in there 20’s.[/quote]
I see. And that is food for thought I can actually take away. Risk value is growing…

Thanks dude. No sarcasm. In this whole thread.


#112

Derek are you saying steroids do not cause liver damage and heart disease when you called me a stupid troll?


#113

Number one, your post above is too long.

number two, I am down to debate whenever you are.

You spent half the post discussing how good you are debating. Right now, you are just good at putting me to sleep and ending good discussions with memes and play-flirts with the women-folk.

This is a discussion, apparently, of wants vs needs. if that is the case, then your stance on cocaine use seems rather odd.

You don’t NEED new shoes. You could wear the old ones until they fall off. Most people get new shoes before they fall off due to appearance…aka VANITY.

Now that we have established that your stance is not in line with a logical stance for NEEDS over WANTS, we can deduce you are simply against steroid use because you don’t like steroids and see them as useless…nothing more.


#114

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]Derek542 wrote:
^ Okay moderate use Cocaine = Left Ventricular Hypertrophy leading to Congestive heart Failure in a pretty damn quick amount of time. When I was working cardiac rehab I had some guys who were on the heart transplant list in there late 30’s from moderate use for years in there 20’s.[/quote]
I see. And that is food for thought I can actually take away. Risk value is growing…

Thanks dude. No sarcasm. In this whole thread.[/quote]

Well that is why I posted, not out of sarcasm either.

Cutting through the bullshit that is fed to the public through the media and political action groups take some true medical knowledge and training.

I cant sit here and cut through the bullshit for foreign policy on oil or telecommunications etc cause I do medicine. While somethings that I would assume with logic can be down right fucking wrong in this regard.

Again not busting your balls out right, but we make assumptions about things and I am just telling you when it comes to the human body. You CANT make assumptions and jump to conclusions, that is why we have evidence based medicine and constantly do continuing education.


#115

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Number one, your post above is too long.

number two, I am down to debate whenever you are.

You spent half the post discussing how good you are debating. Right now, you are just good at putting me to sleep and ending good discussions with memes and play-flirts with the women-folk.

This is a discussion, apparently, of wants vs needs. if that is the case, then your stance on cocaine use seems rather odd.

You don’t NEED new shoes. You could wear the old ones until they fall off. Most people get new shoes before they fall off due to appearance…aka VANITY.

Now that we have established that your stance is not in line with a logical stance for NEEDS over WANTS, we can deduce you are simply against steroid use because you don’t like steroids and see them as useless…nothing more.

[/quote]
Ok you win. Opinions it is.


#116

[quote]CircaThursday wrote:
Derek are you saying steroids do not cause liver damage and heart disease when you called me a stupid troll?[/quote]

These are RISKS. No, steroids do not specifically cause this in all people and if they do, it is generally related to long term use, not one month of injections and definitely not one time use.