Those I call spineless on this board are only the ones who post as such. If you have or are willing to fight for not only this country, but what is right, then I respect that. In fact, my younger brother is in the U.S. Marine Corps. and I have great pride for the contributions/sacrifices he is making for “our” country. I am an American. I do however resent the idea that I somehow came here to recieve handouts only to leave when I got what I want. I come from meager beginnigs and have busted my ass any time an opportunity has presented itself, even making my opportunities if necessary. I believe I will always be an American and want to live here for the rest of my life, but I feel I have a duty to use my talents to fight the oppression in my other home (Middle East) also. As far as nuclear proliferation being a threat, it’s not. Its a promise. These totalitarian regimes hate the U.S., not because of infringing on Islam, but because we are a model for democracy which threatens there hold on wealth and power. They only use the Islam issue to rally Arabs. It’s all propoganda. Believe me when I say that the majority Middle East citizens don’t want destruction of America, but their governments do.
Alright, NOW I’m confused. I thought it was the other way around, i.e. that the majority of Arab GOVERNMENTS want us around because we support their wealthy, corrupt asses (House of Saud, Kuwaiti govt., etc.), but the average PEOPLE of those countries HATE us for propping up and keeping in power the oppressive regimes which keep them in misery. That’s why Bin Laden and his gang have such a following on the Arab (especially Saudi) “street” – he wants to bring down the current Saudi regime (among others). (“Islam” is, of course, just a tool of propaganda and brainwashing that he’s using to further his ends). Am I wrong on this?
“Guess what? We don’t care what the true U.S. motivation is, we just want some kind of intervention”. You’ve got to joking. Help us because we say so? Who’s really spineless here? Sort out your own fucking problems. When have you heard the U.S. demand help. Nobody owes you anything. GO FUCK YOURSELF.
Isolationism!you have to be kidding me,this is the dumbest thing i have ever heard.We live in the 21st century!we have planes,and missles that can travel thoushand of miles,and it is easy to travel to any part of the globe.It is not the 17 or 18 hundreds,isolationism doesn’t work any more!Didn’t we come to grips with this back in world war 2,can you people who agree with this really be that stupid.Pull!out of Afghanstan!oh my god!unbeleivable stupidty!going to kill myslef from my new lack in faith in humanity.Pulling out of Afghganstian to early is what gave rise to the taliban in the first place!don’t you people know that!During the 1980’s we supported afghan rebels who were fighting the soviet union but after the conflict was over we didn’t help rebuild afghanastain and just pulled out leaving it a war torn dump,this led to the rise of the taliban and led to afghanastian a nowhee land becoming a palce for terrorists to plot their chaos.Serioulsy there should be a basic I.Q requirment before posting here or at least a basic knowledge of history.Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.Sorry about the rant but this is really stupid.
Damici, good observation. See, the view that the U.S. government supports these regimes is a complex issue (what isn’t?). On one hand you’re right. Because of the U.S.'s need for the natural resources provided by these governments, the U.S. in turn is supplying these regimes with wealth which in turn means power. But you have to understand that this cooperation is only out of necessity. If these governments could make this type of money by selling oil exclusively to other non-democratic nations they would; gladly shutting out the U.S. completely. So the issue is two-fold. These oppressive governments will take the U.S.'s money for now, while at the same time plotting its destruction. Pure Evil. As far as the Bin Laden issue, he does use misinterpreted Islamic tenets as propoganda, but he also promises that he’ll restore governmental power to the people. This is why you do see some support for him. Seeing that he outwardly lies about the desire of Allah, it is my belief that he is also lying about restoring democracy. Now on to Shitdisturber. We have an educational thread here with a multicultural dialogue, if you want others to repect your opinion please refrain from the use of profanity. “Sort out your own problems.” Like I’ve said before, this is the world’s problem. Their oil, which contrary to popular belief, is necessary and is both directly and indirectly responsible for the health of the U.S. economy, like it or not. These same governments that provide us with that luxury want to enslave its people and destroy all democracy (U.S.). By the way, “the U.S. doesn’t ask/need others help”? Wasn’t it shortly after 9/11 that President Bush assembled a “coalition against terror”? That is asking for others help. Also, do you support removing Saddam Hussein? The U.S. will need permission from Turkey, Qatar, Kuwait, and possibly Saudi Arabia to stage an attack. Sounds like help to me.
T – Your point is less impressive than it might be, because you don’t bother to puncuate properly. It makes your posts more difficult to read. Now to your point – What is being advocated in NOT isolationism. Isolationism is a systematic withdrawal from international relationships. What is being discussed is the proper use of American men and power, i.e. in defense of OUR liberty and security. What do you think will happen if we occupy Afghanistan indefinetly? Past experience will tell you that it will cost billions, draw down resources that could be better used elsewhere, and precipitate an extended guerilla war and terrorist attacks on our men. It is not as if Af. is a real country like Japan after WWII. they have no real gov’t, and are just a bunch of tribes – tribes that hate each other to boot. Why not apply the real litmus test to your position? Would you send a loved one there to fight, and if he died, would you feel that his death was for a worthy cause? So a bunch of semi-savages half a world away can be force fed some kind of ersatz democracy they can’t even understand? I think it is easy to spit vitriol, and take an agressive position. In my experience, it is easier the less likely you are to actually have to do something.
If by buying oil from the Middle East is only supporting oppressive regimes which have a distinctly anti American agenda and also encourages the civilian population towards fundamentalism and furthering the anti-American cause, why not pull out totally?
Before the Gulf War oil from the Middle East made up roughly 30% of US oil comsumption. Afterwards it dropped to just under 15%, but has crept back up to 24% now. But Russia is pumping out oil, enough to substantially lower the dependence on the Middle East. If there was less money floating around for all these corrupt regimes, surely it would weaken their hold and allow the people to get some reform going?
As for pulling out of Afghanistan, that would be unwise just yet. Fill the vaccum with some form of stable goverment and then withdraw. Staying there for too long will interfere with the natives freedom and build resentment.
As for America needing allies for the colition against terror, don't kid yourself. It was all very nice for the press. Everyone standing shoulder to shoulder. Except the American, British and Canadians were the only ones that did anything. America was going in there no matter what, it just looked a bit better this way.
An atomic bomb or worse is exactly what will happen if we do bring the troups home. The Leaders of Islam are raising money to help the families of suicide bombers. Terrorist organizations write checks to the families of suicide bombers. In Saudi it is part of the schools curiculum to teach hate for the west and Isreal. People in our nation better wake up and understand just how big a threat the middle east is to our very existance. If Islam is about peaceful solutions, why haven’t the religious leaders of these nations denounced what their people are doing? They haven’t because this is what is preached in the Koran. Buy it and read for yourself. It’s time to waste these oppressive SOB’s
Huck, you don’t know what you are talking about. Afghanistan may be a bunch of tribes, but this certainly wasn’t always the case. If you look at Afghanistan in the 1960s, you will see a country with a government that not only is open to reform but is actually striving for it. You will see a government and people pushing towards democracy (and this democracy applies to women). Sure, the government was a monarchy, but one that was loved and respected by its people. Have you ever seen pictures of pre-Soviet invasion Afghanistan? If not, let me tell you that you will find thriving cities with streets and cars. Of course, after the Soviets invaded in 1979, buildings were smothered, roads were demolished, and an entire infrastructure became non-existant. The government disappeared, and after the Soviet withdrawal of '89, the US should have installed a new government. It didn’t, and you know the rest. Huck, what do you mean by semi-savages? Do you know any Afghans? Don’t be a sheep and follow stereotypes. I live close to the Bay Area and I know MANY Afghans. They are the most loving and awesome people. Their sense of family would make any American jealous (whether it be European-American or otherwise). And don’t argue with me. I am European-American and I am jealous. Also, what do you mean by a democracy they can’t understand? Never mind that these are the same Afghans that would have a democratic country had war not broken out, I don’t know what you mean by “they can’t even understand”. Are you suggesting they are stupid? If not, what do you mean? If so, do you mean stupid in this sense: Afghanistan, a country that minded its own business, had to defend itself against one of the two superpowers of the world. The school system, which was fully functional, became bombed to shrapnel. Even if the Soviet warplanes decided to leave the schools alone, a war isn’t exactly the most study-friendly environment. Tragically, an entire generation grew without knowledge and is sadly stupid. Potential lost. Or in this sense: Afghans have no capacity to learn, war or no war, school or no school, as they are stupid? Huck, if I read you correctly, know that you can’t argue me because I know what I am talking about (I know AT LEAST 30 Afghans). If I misunderstood you in any way, please let me know. BTW, I agree more or less with your main post (Pat’s article).
Huck, you don’t know what you are talking about. Afghanistan may be a bunch of tribes, but this certainly wasn’t always the case. …But it is now…If you look at Afghanistan in the 1960s,…The 1960s were 40 years ago…Huck, what do you mean by semi-savages?..I can see their behavior for myself anytime I want on TV. I am sure that they have families, etc like we do – but the culture is fragmanted and tribal – if this is not a semi-savage state of affairs, what is? Can you really expact to establish a fromal gov’t in such a stiuation?.. Their sense of family would make any American jealous …Really? I’m not… And don’t argue with me…Why not? Isn’t that the point of a forum?.. I am European-American and I am jealous…Of me no doubt 
… Also, what do you mean by a democracy they can’t understand?.. See your own comment re: demolished infrastructure and education underpinnings – Also, the warlords have no investment in democracy, and will not support it… Or in this sense: Afghans have no capacity to learn, war or no war, school or no school, as they are stupid? …Of course not. I am sure they can learn just as well as anyone. The problem is the last 30 years or so of history, and the current climate…Huck, if I read you correctly, know that you can’t argue me because I know what I am talking about (I know AT LEAST 30 Afghans)…I don’t think that the Afghans you know in the bay area have much to do with the ones that will tear apart any real gov’t in Afghanistan… If I misunderstood you in any way, please let me know. BTW, I agree more or less with your main post (Pat’s article)…I have tried. It is interesting to hear that we should have rebuilt their country after the Soviet invasion. Should we have done so everywhere in a 50 year struggle? Unfortunately, the coming sequence of events is all to easy to predict: We will keep troops in Af for the forseeable future. Our men will die from sniper fire and terrorist attacks. Any gov’t will be attacked the same way. Unfriendly powers (read all except Israel)in the region will foment instability. We will spend billions to no end, and eventually leave with some half-assed dictator in charge, telling ourselves what we always do: Well, at least he is friendly to the US, and his regime is stable (until the next coup). As to those that think the Islamic world is foaming at the mouth to drop a nuke on us: We spent 50 years fighting a regime much more powerful, that was openly dedicated to our destruction, and HAD thousands of nukes. It never happenned for the same resaon it won’t happan now – We would reduce their country to a smoking cinder. This is the same reason they won’t give a nuke to a terrorist organization. If it was traced back, they are done. There does exist the possibility of a suitcase nuke being smuggled in, after being optained God knows how. But this will not be a state sponsored action. Ask yourself what they would have to gain. Done with this thread.
I was under the impression that progress was being made in afghanastan?i could be wrong?but if progress is being made towards a government in afghanstain we should defineltly stay in there.If we leave afghanastain it could easily turn into the terrorism hotbed it was before.it is a worthy casue for the military to be in afgahanstain if it saves lives in the future.I think we should get out of afghanastian if their is no signifigant progress for a government. and the situation is jsut to unstable to make progress.
pulling out of the middleeast will not solve any of are problems there regarding terrorism.The nations there are ruled by oppresive regimes and instead of directing there anger towards the goverment they direct it towards isreal and the untied states,also there is a real terrorist movement for jihad in the muslim world to rid the world of non muslims,terrorists attacks by muslims happen in china.