This Doesn't Scare You?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
41

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Ren wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Exactly. If any immigrants are worried about it I suggest you keep your nose clean, don’t hang out with terrorists and take the oath as soon as you are able.

But what happens if I didn’t know they had any ties to terrorists?? Oh yeah, 3 and a half years till I can take the oath!! Can’t wait.

America citizens get screwed for hanging out with the wrong people and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is just another risk in a risk filled life.

In 3.5 years you will have one less worry in your life![/quote]

Yes, but then I have to be carefule about gonig to countries that dislike Americans!! Actually, screw those guys, I’ll be very proud to call myself an American!!

42

[C&P]

What you need to know about the Military Commissions Act

Among other things, the Act will:

  • Strip the US courts of jurisdiction to hear or consider habeas corpus appeals challenging the lawfulness or conditions of detention of anyone held in US custody as an ?enemy combatant?. Judicial review of cases would be severely limited. The law would apply retroactively, and thus could result in more than 200 pending appeals filed on behalf of Guant?namo detainees being thrown out of court.

  • Permit the executive to convene military commissions to try ?alien unlawful enemy combatants?, as determined by the executive under a dangerously broad definition, in trials that would provide foreign nationals so labeled with a lower standard of justice than US citizens accused of the same crimes. This would violate the prohibition on the discriminatory application of fair trial rights.

  • Permit the use in military commission trials of evidence extracted under cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

  • Give the military commissions the power to hand down death sentences after trials that did not meet international standards.

  • Permit the executive to determine who is an ?enemy combatant? under any ?competent tribunal? established by the executive, and endorse the Combatant Status Review Tribunal (CSRT), the wholly inadequate administrative procedure that has been employed in Guant?namo to review individual detentions.

  • Prohibit any person from invoking the Geneva Conventions or their protocols as a source of rights in any action in any US court.

  • Narrow the scope of the War Crimes Act by not expressly criminalizing acts that constitute “outrages upon personal dignity, particularly humiliating and degrading treatment” banned under international law. Amnesty International believes that the USA has routinely failed to respect the human dignity of detainees in the “war on terror”.

  • Endorse the administration?s “war paradigm” ? under which the USA has selectively applied the laws of war and rejected international human rights law. The legislation would backdate the “war on terror” to before the 11 September 2001 in order to be able to try individuals in front of military commissions for “war crimes” committed before that date.

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/stoptorture-060930-feature…

43

[quote]Ren wrote:

I am giddy with excitement. But shouldn’t those guys be charged with treason? Especially the last 2 captured on the battlefield.[/quote]

In a country eager to hunt down and illegally detain it’s own citizens for a variety of nefarious means, you would think treason and subsequent execution would be the m.o.

IMO, treason is a rare offense and harder to convict someone on than conspiracy, sedition, or espionage. Especially given the ‘two witness’ constitutional definition of treason and the fact that their detention was already contested as unconstitutional.

44

[quote]Ren wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Right here:
Martin noted that “the administration kidnapped an innocent German citizen” and “held him incommunicado for months . . . because the CIA or Pentagon wrongly suspected him of terrorist ties.” She was referring to Khalid al-Masri, who the Bush administration eventually acknowledged was detained on insufficient grounds.

I remember people asking where any proof of our rights being taken away were. Well, if this isn’t a shining example of what can happen, I don;t know what is. Do we just wait until it is one of us and THEN try to fight it? How stupid. Yes, let’s cheer on the mad push for more power…until they use it against us.

OUR rights are not affected by a GERMAN citizen being kidnapped. That has been explained to you over and over and over. Our rights are protected by the Constitution, which applies to born and naturalized CITIZENS.

You so sure about this?

that is just one example.[/quote]

Yes, I’m sure I’m not afraid of crackpot youtube documentaries.

45

[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Right here:
Martin noted that “the administration kidnapped an innocent German citizen” and “held him incommunicado for months . . . because the CIA or Pentagon wrongly suspected him of terrorist ties.” She was referring to Khalid al-Masri, who the Bush administration eventually acknowledged was detained on insufficient grounds.

I remember people asking where any proof of our rights being taken away were. Well, if this isn’t a shining example of what can happen, I don;t know what is. Do we just wait until it is one of us and THEN try to fight it? How stupid. Yes, let’s cheer on the mad push for more power…until they use it against us.

OUR rights are not affected by a GERMAN citizen being kidnapped. That has been explained to you over and over and over. Our rights are protected by the Constitution, which applies to born and naturalized CITIZENS.

Until a bill gets signed into law that allows US citizens to be held if they are believed to be “threats”.[/quote]

If that happened, it would be ruled unconstitutional. If it wasn’t, it would be time to crack out the rifles and revolt.

46

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And yet if they didn’t go to these more extreme measures to stop terrorism or protect US citizens and someone from your family died as result, you would probably be the first to say that they should have done more.

It is any easy thing to cry about freedoms being lost due to increased security measures when you have not lost any family members as a result of a lack of security.

I have lost family in Iraq. How do I get my cousin back?
[/quote]

Do you believe that we should sacrifice some freedom to prevent more people or do individual liberties take precedence over protecting US citizens?

47

[quote]doogie wrote:
Yes, I’m sure I’m not afraid of crackpot youtube documentaries.[/quote]

doesn’t matter how crackpot that is, he is a citizen and was detained is the point.

48

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
And yet if they didn’t go to these more extreme measures to stop terrorism or protect US citizens and someone from your family died as result, you would probably be the first to say that they should have done more.

It is any easy thing to cry about freedoms being lost due to increased security measures when you have not lost any family members as a result of a lack of security.

I have lost family in Iraq. How do I get my cousin back?

Do you believe that we should sacrifice some freedom to prevent more people or do individual liberties take precedence over protecting US citizens?

[/quote]

I think our freedom is valuable and there was ALWAYS a threat. If at the first sign of trouble you are ready to sign your freedom away, you didn’t deserve it to begin with.

49

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Professor X wrote:
The definition applies to foreigners living inside or outside the United States and does not rule out the possibility of designating a U.S. citizen as an unlawful combatant. It is broader than that in last week’s version of the bill, which resulted from lengthy, closed-door negotiations between senior administration officials and dissident Republican senators. That version incorporated a definition backed by the Senate dissidents: those “engaged in hostilities against the United States.”
…

Martin noted that “the administration kidnapped an innocent German citizen” and “held him incommunicado for months . . . because the CIA or Pentagon wrongly suspected him of terrorist ties.” She was referring to Khalid al-Masri, who the Bush administration eventually acknowledged was detained on insufficient grounds.

This won’t scare many because far too many don’t think ahead of “fear of terrorists”. They don’t consider possible actions against America’s own citizens and just how much power we are giving a government that could eventually turn against many of us.

And yet if they didn’t go to these more extreme measures to stop terrorism or protect US citizens and someone from your family died as result, you would probably be the first to say that they should have done more.

It is any easy thing to cry about freedoms being lost due to increased security measures when you have not lost any family members as a result of a lack of security.

[/quote]

The bill passed yesterday does nothing for security. Removal of habeas and the allowance of torture have nothing to do with security—perhaps the opposite.

50

Zap Branigan,

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
[…]Exactly. If any immigrants are worried about it I suggest you keep your nose clean, don’t hang out with terrorists and take the oath as soon as you are able.[/quote]

German Khalid al-Masri was abducted by US agents while being on holiday in Macedonia. Which state of the US is that again?

Oh, yeah, not to forget Murat Kurnaz, who spent 4 years in Gitmo - just to be released as innocent - as so many others (especially the British detainees).

I can’t believe how any sane person can defend a system that allows people to be kidnapped in other countries and detained (for months or even years) without proper representation.

If the only thing that keeps you from thinking that this is unjust, dangerous, and despicable, because it only hits foreigners, then think again: If that is truly now the mindset of the American people (which I still doubt), then the US has indeed lost it’s values. That would be very sad.

Makkun

51

[quote]makkun wrote:
Zap Branigan,

Zap Branigan wrote:
[…]Exactly. If any immigrants are worried about it I suggest you keep your nose clean, don’t hang out with terrorists and take the oath as soon as you are able.

German Khalid al-Masri was abducted by US agents while being on holiday in Macedonia. Which state of the US is that again?

Oh, yeah, not to forget Murat Kurnaz, who spent 4 years in Gitmo - just to be released as innocent - as so many others (especially the British detainees).

I can’t believe how any sane person can defend a system that allows people to be kidnapped in other countries and detained (for months or even years) without proper representation.

If the only thing that keeps you from thinking that this is unjust, dangerous, and despicable, because it only hits foreigners, then think again: If that is truly now the mindset of the American people (which I still doubt), then the US has indeed lost it’s values. That would be very sad.

Makkun[/quote]

I agree. I am actually surprised at how many seem to be praising the effort as if it is right to do this.

52

[quote]Professor X wrote:
makkun wrote:
Zap Branigan,

Zap Branigan wrote:
[…]Exactly. If any immigrants are worried about it I suggest you keep your nose clean, don’t hang out with terrorists and take the oath as soon as you are able.

German Khalid al-Masri was abducted by US agents while being on holiday in Macedonia. Which state of the US is that again?

Oh, yeah, not to forget Murat Kurnaz, who spent 4 years in Gitmo - just to be released as innocent - as so many others (especially the British detainees).

I can’t believe how any sane person can defend a system that allows people to be kidnapped in other countries and detained (for months or even years) without proper representation.

If the only thing that keeps you from thinking that this is unjust, dangerous, and despicable, because it only hits foreigners, then think again: If that is truly now the mindset of the American people (which I still doubt), then the US has indeed lost it’s values. That would be very sad.

Makkun

I agree. I am actually surprised at how many seem to be praising the effort as if it is right to do this. [/quote]

All in the name of security from something that is not even on the top 10 list of things that could kill you tomorrow…

53

…this i don’t get: some of you condone the invasion of Iraq because Saddam was a ruthless dictator and it doesn’t matter you were lied to by Bush in regards to the WMD’s and Saddam’s involvement with Al-Qaida because he tortured and killed those who opposed him, yet you applaud similar actions undertaken by your current administration that will lead to an absolute powerbase without any concern for [international] human rights and the Constitution…

54

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…this i don’t get: some of you condone the invasion of Iraq because Saddam was a ruthless dictator and it doesn’t matter you were lied to by Bush in regards to the WMD’s and Saddam’s involvement with Al-Qaida because he tortured and killed those who opposed him, yet you applaud similar actions undertaken by your current administration that will lead to an absolute powerbase without any concern for [international] human rights and the Constitution…[/quote]

Torturing is now ok, kidnapping people from other countries is now ok…because we are fighting a war on terror. Why did you have to bring ETHICS into this?

55

I keep hearing the 2 examples of people being kidnapped over and over again. It is statistically insignificant.

Prisons all over the world are full of innocent people. It is fact of life. That does not mean we should ditch our systems, just improve them.

56

You whiny little fucking babies.

Name one right that this bill takes away from a U.S. citizen. Just one motherfucking right you no longer have that had prior to the bill passing.

You can’t do it.

You can’t name a single right that has been taken fron you since 9/10/2001.

Ever been to Mexico? Those bastards don’t give a shit about your ‘rights’. You do what they say when they say.

Where is your outrage at Mexico?

The whiny spoiled brat bullshit from the pro-terrorist crowd is getting stupid. It was cute. Now it’s just sad.

57

…Rome is burning, and you admire the flames…

58

[quote]rainjack wrote:
You whiny little fucking babies.

Name one right that this bill takes away from a U.S. citizen. Just one motherfucking right you no longer have that had prior to the bill passing.

You can’t do it.

You can’t name a single right that has been taken fron you since 9/10/2001.

Ever been to Mexico? Those bastards don’t give a shit about your ‘rights’. You do what they say when they say.

Where is your outrage at Mexico?

The whiny spoiled brat bullshit from the pro-terrorist crowd is getting stupid. It was cute. Now it’s just sad.
[/quote]

Are you really this stupid? Anyone who cares about constitutional government and their rights as a citizen, not to mention what America stands for, is “pro-terrorist”? That’s beyond moronic.

And Mexico? Nice non sequitur. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? I don’t live in Mexico. I’m an American citizen, so I’m naturally gonna be a lot more concerned about the powers of my government, not the junta du jour. Again, are you really this stupid?

59

“I just got back from a FEMA Detainment Camp”

The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities. Many also have an airport nearby. The majority of the camps can house a population of 20,000 prisoners. Currently, the largest of these facilities is just outside of Fairbanks, Alaska. The Alaskan facility is a massive mental health facility and can hold approximately 2 million people.

I wonder what they are planning for this facility? They could easily fit 100,000 people in this area. And who would the occupants be?

What would bring about a situation that would call into effect the need for these new prison facilities? A man-made or natural catastrophe? An earthquake, panic due to Y2K, a massive poisoning, a panic of such dimensions to cause.

Once a major disaster occurs (whether it is a real event or manufactured event does not matter) Martial Law is hurriedly put in place and we are all in the hands of the government agencies (FEMA) who thus portray themselves as our protectors. Yet what happens when we question those in authority and how they are taking away all of our freedoms? Will we be the ones detained in these camp sites?

And who are they going to round up? Those with guns? Those who ask questions? Those that want to know what’s really going on? Does that include any of us? The seekers of truth? nationwide panic?

We just don’t care enough to find out the real truth, and settle for the hand-fed stories that come our way over the major media sources television, radio, newspaper, and magazines. But it’s too late to turn back to the days of blindfolds and hiding our heads in the sand because the reality is becoming very clear.

The time is fast approaching when we will be the ones asking “What happened to our freedom? To our free speech? To our right to protect ourselves and our family? To think as an individual? To express ourselves in whatever way we wish?”

Why are we all in denial over these possibilities? Didn’t we hear about prison camps in Germany, and even in the United States during World War II? Japanese individuals were rounded up and placed in determent camps during the duration of the War. Where was their freedom?

You don’t think it could happen to you? Obviously those rounded up and killed didn’t think it could happen to them either. How could decent people have witnessed such atrocities and still said nothing? Are we going to do the same here as they cart off one by one those individuals who are taking a stand for the rights of the citizens as they expose the truth happening behind the scenes?

Are we all going to sit there and wonder what happened to this country of ours? Where did we go wrong? How could we let it happen?

60

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