T Nation

Third Cycle Advice


#1

Hey Guys,

Love your site. Came here to plan my last cycle and got great advice especially since my first cycle was prop - bit of a failed cycle tbh.

Just finished PCT for my second cycle.
Sorted out my diet after about 4-5 weeks into the cycle.
Original Cycle Plan

W 1-12 Test Enth 300mg twice a week
W 1-4, 10-12 Dbol 10mg 3x/d
W 12-14 Break
W 14 - Nolva 20mg a day for 6 weeks

During cycle:
Weight has shot up from 88 to 94.
POWER and SIZE has increased massively. Feel a bit bloated and holding loads of water but as expected with the Dbol.
Bench went from 110/115 max to 145 Monday. My wrists were literally shaking but felt incredible.- Maxed out 155
Squat from 110/120 to 140 easy.. could have done more but my knee has issues so didn't want to push it. - Maxed out 150
Deadlift today my max was 160 these last 3 weeks.. Aiming 180/200... - Maxed out 175

Problem is I got sick these last 2 weeks and with my diet being at a caloric deficit I lost a lot of weight whilst retaining some of the muscle mass.

Still feel like my BF is a bit high and I know it is no where near as bad as last year but hate feeling my gut when I sit - bit of extra chub sitting there hiding my abs. Gonna keep dieting until Dec but wanted to go for a third cycle then - 12 weeks after PCT ends.

Torn between running the same cycle again - given the gains, but this time not for so long. 12 weeks was a long cycle for me.

Or Running Test and Clen?
Or Test and Deca?

I want something that will help burn some of that belly fat off whilst helping to keep muscle size? My BF was around 12-14 on cycle and now I feel it is closer to 16-18 range. Any ideas?

This is the beginning of my research - so just looking for advice.

Training 4 times a week and on a strict eating plan from my trainer of only carbs pre and post workout and one cheat day a week.
Thinking IIFYM may be a better long term option for me?

Stats:

24 years old
1.84M
88 kgs
Lifting experience - 4 years
Type of training - heavy weights, low reps - usually 5 sets of 5, more geared towards strength - avid supporter 5x5 and 531

Will post pics in a couple days - want to shave down and get a tan first.
Minimum BF 14%
Maximum BF 18%

Will get a caliber today to measure. But my weight fluctuates very easily. Was 94kgs after 4 weeks on cycle.

Not looking to do another 12 week cycle - probably 8 -10 weeks.
Won't go back to prop - the PIP was a bit much to handle especially as love squas and deadlifts and with PIP you can barely do either.

Bit apprehensive of deca due to its bad rep and side effects but here for advice and to listen so open to suggestions.


#2

Were you using an AI and HCG during this cycle?

For your next cycle i would do something very similar, with the addition of an AI and HCG. I would not add deca - If you want more go with 750mg test or similar but i don’t think this is necessary.

I’m not quite sure but i have interpreted the above as you jumping from a not really having a diet plan to then going onto a plan that put you into a deficit during the cycle. Have you continued in this deficit during PCT? You mention that your body fat is higher now than during the cycle despite this change?

For you next cycle and just in general i think you will benefit the most from focusing in on your diet and your training goals. Also i would train a lot more, four days a week isn’t a lot, but then this will depend on your own recovery and your goals.

Also your bench press is massive compared to your other lifts


#3

[quote]pex86 wrote:

Also your bench press is massive compared to your other lifts[/quote]

It’s his only lift that’s not utter garbage… He still can’t deadlift 400 lbs, and he’s run 2 cycles. That’s unreasonably pathetic.


#4

Hey Pex,

I did use Proviron sorry I forgot that. But nothing else.

I was following a bulk type diet before the cycle as thought would be the best way to maximize the gains to eat extra calories. But I shot up a bit too quickly in 4 weeks to 94 kgs and I know a lot of it was water retention from the dbol but decided that I didn’t like feeling like a balloon and got in touch with a trainer who advised me to go on the diet plan to drop off the extra chub and with the help of the anabolics it would retain the muscle mass - which it kind of did.

I have continued this deficit into my PCT, think its more a mental effect of thinking I have a higher BF than I actually have. Also got really sick about 3 weeks into my PCT and had to take some time out of the gym to recover - think the lack of training in that period affected me physically and mentally. But I know I need metrics and measurements to make sure its not just my head messing with me and waiting for my Caliber to arrive.

Thank you for the advice, on cycle I feel I can train nearly every single day just work does take up my weeks - manage 2-3 sessions during the week but train every weekend. Love training on the weekends as its virtually empty.

Yeah I know my lifts are not in proportion to each other. Mainly as my gym partners skip leg day so I know I can do more for Squats but never push it in fear of failure - usually train legs Saturday or sunday.

Managed 180Kg deadlifts yesterday so close to 400lbs.
My goal is 200kg deadlift by year end.
Thing is I can do 4 reps comfortably on 170. So thinking it is more mental.
Plus I prefer the 5x5 approach so build I up to it - 60, 100, 130, 160, 170 so by the time I am ready for my 1RM i have tired myself out on the build up sets.

Ouch Flip that hurt a bit. But guess I came here looking for advice and criticism and will take it in my stride.
I do want to still get stronger and lift heavier but its difficult when you concentrate on strength and see the guy who can lift half your weight with a much better body because of his focus on aesthetics…


#5

Hi Newbie,

If you have a diet coach that you are confident in then that’s great. Just be clear in your goals and work with them to get there.

You need to use a AI during your cycle next time - Proviron is not one. I do not know a lot about Proviron aside from that i hear of people using it thinking that it will control estrogen. Maybe it has some effect on it, i don’t know, but it is not suitable to be used instead of an AI. I like arimadex as it is easy to dose.

Also add HCG into your next cycle 250iu twice a week. I just take mine at the same time as the test.

Getting bloodwork after a cycle is a good idea, and as you did not use an AI i would definitely recommend you get some done. You might have high estrogen which could prevent a decent recovery.

I don’t really understand your point at the end to flipcollar - I think you are saying you find it hard to focus on getting stronger because weaker people look better? These people with good physiques might be choosing to work with a lighter weight, but no doubt anyone with a decent amount of muscle mass can more some heavy shit if they want to.


#6

[quote]Newbie101 wrote:

Ouch Flip that hurt a bit. But guess I came here looking for advice and criticism and will take it in my stride.
I do want to still get stronger and lift heavier but its difficult when you concentrate on strength and see the guy who can lift half your weight with a much better body because of his focus on aesthetics…[/quote]

I’ve deadlifted 585lbs in competition, squatted 515, and benched 375. And I look great. You probably look worse than weaker guys because you’re carrying too much fat.

As for your excuse for not pushing your squat enough, I train alone nearly all the time. The ONLY time I use a spotter is if I go for an absolute max squat. If you’re not confident about a squat, you have a couple options without a spotter. You can use the safety pins/bars on a squat rack in case you have to bail. Or you can learn to dump the bar. I’ve dumped a 400 lbs bar off my back. It can be done safely. Look on youtube to see how it’s done.

Don’t make excuses. Train harder.


#7

[quote]flipcollar wrote:
I’ve deadlifted 585lbs in competition, squatted 515, and benched 375. And I look great.[/quote]

I love this


#8

Hi Pex,

Thanks for your reply appreciate the help.
I consulted on my first cycle on Tnation:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/hub/Newbie101#myForums/thread/6251221/0

But you are right and I did want to use arimadex just my guy couldn’t find it and neither could anyone else at the time - it always seems the PCT is harder to source than the actual steroids.

I did bloodwork before cycle but thats excellent advice, will set up to get some bloodwork done this week. Could explain why the acne hasn’t gone away completely.

Ah sorry I wasnt too clear. My general point was that I would always concentrate on strength training and lifting heavy but a couple of my gym buddies max lifts are about 60-70% of mine yet with the cut and courses they have run they look a lot bigger. Think mainly from the deca but was a bit taken back from flip when he suggested what weights I should be pushing - was always proud of my squat and bench but know my deadlift could be higher.

Thanks for all your help. Got myself some CLA’s and they seem to be helping. Will get bloodwork done and diet. The next cycle can only start in December so doing my homework before hand.

Leaning towards a Test and Winny or Test and Anavar cycle. Any advice? Thinking the test is quite low considering I was injecting 300mg twice a week before.

From my trainer:
“Forget Dbol or anything that retains water weight, on the next run I would be looking into test/anavar or test/winstrol. You really donâ??t need a high amount of testosterone while you are dieting, you can get by perfectly fine on 200-300mg/wk. I would include 1/2mg arimadex 3x/wk to prevent any estro conversion and diet my ass off. Itâ??s almost all diet man, it really is. Ill sort you out a new diet plan.”

[quote]pex86 wrote:
Hi Newbie,

If you have a diet coach that you are confident in then that’s great. Just be clear in your goals and work with them to get there.

You need to use a AI during your cycle next time - Proviron is not one. I do not know a lot about Proviron aside from that i hear of people using it thinking that it will control estrogen. Maybe it has some effect on it, i don’t know, but it is not suitable to be used instead of an AI. I like arimadex as it is easy to dose.

Also add HCG into your next cycle 250iu twice a week. I just take mine at the same time as the test.

Getting bloodwork after a cycle is a good idea, and as you did not use an AI i would definitely recommend you get some done. You might have high estrogen which could prevent a decent recovery.

I don’t really understand your point at the end to flipcollar - I think you are saying you find it hard to focus on getting stronger because weaker people look better? These people with good physiques might be choosing to work with a lighter weight, but no doubt anyone with a decent amount of muscle mass can more some heavy shit if they want to.[/quote]


#9

Fair enough Flip.

you are right its an excuse and I will push harder.

And you are spot on about the carrying extra fat. Got some CLA’s and dieting my ass off now. I want to be at the stage where come December I am happy with my bf and I know if I do go back on cycle I am 100% ready.

Leaning towards a Test and Winny or Test and Anavar cycle. Any advice? Thinking the test is quite low considering I was injecting 300mg twice a week before.

From my trainer:
“Forget Dbol or anything that retains water weight, on the next run I would be looking into test/anavar or test/winstrol. You really donâ??t need a high amount of testosterone while you are dieting, you can get by perfectly fine on 200-300mg/wk. I would include 1/2mg arimadex 3x/wk to prevent any estro conversion and diet my ass off. Itâ??s almost all diet man, it really is. Ill sort you out a new diet plan.”

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Newbie101 wrote:

Ouch Flip that hurt a bit. But guess I came here looking for advice and criticism and will take it in my stride.
I do want to still get stronger and lift heavier but its difficult when you concentrate on strength and see the guy who can lift half your weight with a much better body because of his focus on aesthetics…[/quote]

I’ve deadlifted 585lbs in competition, squatted 515, and benched 375. And I look great. You probably look worse than weaker guys because you’re carrying too much fat.

As for your excuse for not pushing your squat enough, I train alone nearly all the time. The ONLY time I use a spotter is if I go for an absolute max squat. If you’re not confident about a squat, you have a couple options without a spotter. You can use the safety pins/bars on a squat rack in case you have to bail. Or you can learn to dump the bar. I’ve dumped a 400 lbs bar off my back. It can be done safely. Look on youtube to see how it’s done.

Don’t make excuses. Train harder.[/quote]


#10

Why do you want to avoid temporary water weight gain? Dbol won’t negatively impact fat loss. It’s a great all-around steroid, and can be used while cutting fat. Your trainer doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Winstrol is utterly useless outside of bodybuilding contest prep, and should only be used in the last few weeks or so. It is NOT for someone in your position. Anavar isn’t a bad option.

High test will also be useful when trying to lose fat. This is another indication that your trainer doesn’t know anything. In fact, it’s probably MORE important when you’re trying to lose fat, because you don’t want to lose muscle at the same time. All your trainer seems to know how to do is lose weight. And not in a good way.

He’s right about diet being important though.


#11

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Winstrol is utterly useless outside of bodybuilding contest prep, and should only be used in the last few weeks or so. It is NOT for someone in your position. Anavar isn’t a bad option.

[/quote]

I can’t think of any AAS that’s utterly useless. Winstrol lowers SHBG significantly raising free test. It works synergistically with test. At the beginning of a cycle when you’re bulking with wet compounds like test and anadrol you can start to run Winstrol just before you drop test. Then use Winstrol to maintain gains whilst losing all the water retention and dieting to lower bf%. I prefer Winstrol to anavar but I get tendinitis / tendonsis so I can’t take it.


#12

[quote]Androgenoid wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Winstrol is utterly useless outside of bodybuilding contest prep, and should only be used in the last few weeks or so. It is NOT for someone in your position. Anavar isn’t a bad option.

[/quote]

I can’t think of any AAS that’s utterly useless. Winstrol lowers SHBG significantly raising free test. It works synergistically with test. At the beginning of a cycle when you’re bulking with wet compounds like test and anadrol you can start to run Winstrol just before you drop test. Then use Winstrol to maintain gains whilst losing all the water retention and dieting to lower bf%. I prefer Winstrol to anavar but I get tendinitis / tendonsis so I can’t take it.[/quote]

I probably exaggerated here. But I think it’s a terrible choice given the way he’s described himself. He’s just not at a low enough bodyfat right now for winstrol to make sense. And I don’t think he’ll reach a proper bodyfat in this cycle for it to make sense at the end either.


#13

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Androgenoid wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Winstrol is utterly useless outside of bodybuilding contest prep, and should only be used in the last few weeks or so. It is NOT for someone in your position. Anavar isn’t a bad option.

[/quote]

I can’t think of any AAS that’s utterly useless. Winstrol lowers SHBG significantly raising free test. It works synergistically with test. At the beginning of a cycle when you’re bulking with wet compounds like test and anadrol you can start to run Winstrol just before you drop test. Then use Winstrol to maintain gains whilst losing all the water retention and dieting to lower bf%. I prefer Winstrol to anavar but I get tendinitis / tendonsis so I can’t take it.[/quote]

I probably exaggerated here. But I think it’s a terrible choice given the way he’s described himself. He’s just not at a low enough bodyfat right now for winstrol to make sense. And I don’t think he’ll reach a proper bodyfat in this cycle for it to make sense at the end either.[/quote]

Yes you won’t notice anything from winstrol unless you’re <8% bf at least. But that’s because winstrol is not a mass gainer. No one gets jacked on winstrol. But as long as you understand what it’s used for it can still be effective at holding onto gains after dropping wet bulking compounds.


#14

[quote]Androgenoid wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]Androgenoid wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

Winstrol is utterly useless outside of bodybuilding contest prep, and should only be used in the last few weeks or so. It is NOT for someone in your position. Anavar isn’t a bad option.

[/quote]

I can’t think of any AAS that’s utterly useless. Winstrol lowers SHBG significantly raising free test. It works synergistically with test. At the beginning of a cycle when you’re bulking with wet compounds like test and anadrol you can start to run Winstrol just before you drop test. Then use Winstrol to maintain gains whilst losing all the water retention and dieting to lower bf%. I prefer Winstrol to anavar but I get tendinitis / tendonsis so I can’t take it.[/quote]

I probably exaggerated here. But I think it’s a terrible choice given the way he’s described himself. He’s just not at a low enough bodyfat right now for winstrol to make sense. And I don’t think he’ll reach a proper bodyfat in this cycle for it to make sense at the end either.[/quote]

Yes you won’t notice anything from winstrol unless you’re <8% bf at least. But that’s because winstrol is not a mass gainer. No one gets jacked on winstrol. But as long as you understand what it’s used for it can still be effective at holding onto gains after dropping wet bulking compounds.
[/quote]

I agree with this. we can be friends.