T Nation

Things Went Sideways After Lowering Dose/Adding AI

So, after 8 weeks in, I was feeling great with maybe a little bit of water retention. Here are those labs.

After reviewing with defy, we agreed to lower me from 160mg/week (two 80 week) to 140mg (two 70mg) and add 0.1mg adex per week. No HCG or anything else either course. Fast forward 3 weeks and I feel like shit. ED that I’ve never had, apathetic, lost muscle size, just not the same. Pulled quick labs and unfortunately they ran the wrong E2 test but here goes:

Any thoughts before i get on the phone with defy?

Your levels are unstable which occurs after changing dosages, it will take a total of 6 weeks for levels to be stable before you start to pick up from where you left off. If it’s been 3 weeks since you last made a change, then it will be another 3 weeks before levels are stable again.

Drop the AI. It straight up just bothers some people like an allergic reaction. It’ll take a couple of days to leave your system.

Sure does and what I was going to say. So many guys who stopped ai said they feel better. Not because E2 but becusse the ai sides are gone.

I have a week ago. Which Defy doesn’t like. But I felt light years better at my previous high numbers with no AI

Honestly water retention and shit seems to dissaoate after several months of trt. It did for me and others have state the same.

If one feels great at a dose why change it? It makes no sense. Take an ai because of a tiny bit of water retention? The body is adapting and stabilizing with new hormones.

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The water retention will fade, the E2 will most likely drop as well all on it’s own with some time. I used a low dose of AI for a few months, I still have a pile of it left over. I did it because my wife said that I “looked like a heart attack”. She was my bloat gauge, she could see it better than I could. I have no or virtually no bloat now.

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Haha yah same here. Your fat ankle. Your face is fat.

I was lucky in that I could jsut take one click less of cream and have less estrogen. Now I’m back to 3 am and Pm and every week I get better and better.

So that age old “trt takes months not days” now makes sense.

I see now why docs get so frustrated when
Patients complain 2 months in that they aren’t perfectly healed yet.

I logged in just to post this.

So you were feeling great… Why did you change anything?

Lowering dose and adding AI at the same time is a questionable practice.

You are already going to lower e2 by the dose drop, why add poisonous AI? You said yourself you weren’t really even having symptoms. You cant jump to conclusions because you have 1 symptom of high E2. If you had Bload, limp dick, itchy nipples, and crying like a bitch, then you have a problem.

Like people mentioned already, the AI is probably making you feel terrible.

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This is the two-edged sword of treating for optimal health. Good is good, but you’re going to push the envelope a few times if you are trying for optimal.

You’re right. Defy asked if I had any symptoms. Literally the only one was the loss of morning erections. A little over-reactive/anxious. Nothing else. But I blindly listened to them. Luckily, I took the small end of the recommendation and have been only taking 0.05mg twice a week. And I haven’t taken any since Sunday.

But even today when they saw my non-sensitive E2, the nurse was like, yep this is all due to high E2. I pushed back and told them that makes no sense as I felt a whole lot better with my e2 at 65. Kinda wish I stayed where I was or maybe went to 3 times per week at the same dose, @anon10035199

The symptoms you described could have easily been fixed with either a slight decrease in dose, and or some natural methods of E2 control (zinc, lemon water, cruciferous veggies, losing weight) Are you overweight?

@hardartery Optimal shouldn’t include an AI, unless there is absolutely no other option. This guy is clearly close, stating that he feels great, he has a few slight e2 issues. Lower dose. Don’t add an AI AND lower the dose. They both have the same outcome, which is stupid to do both at the same time…

1 think should be changed at a time regarding TRT protocols. Otherwise you have no idea what did what. For instance, did the dropping of the dose lower his e2, or the AI? No way to tell now.

No, not overweight. Visible abs, vascularity across delts. Not shredded but not at all fat. I also don’t love that my TT dropped that much. That wasn’t even on my injection day, still one more day to go to get in the full trough. And that’s showed up my decreased size/fullness (lost about 7 pounds since the change and nothing else has changed)

AI’s are personal opinion. Some people are adamant that they are poison and should never be used. Others would argue that the benefits of controlling E2 outweigh taking the AI, especially if there are no symptoms. So, it depends. The word “Optimal” is really in quotes whenever it appears, IMO. Who really knows what optimal actually is?

AI is part of the toolbox. It’s best use in that special situation where the other tools do not fix the problem.

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If you read my comment you would see that I said it could be used as a last resort. (although I would never advocate for it) Usually people with high e2 problems are either overweight or have fucked up livers.

But I’m sorry I wont agree with you regarding AI’s being a personal opinion . You should read @physioLojik post about what AI’s do to your serotonin, clotting cascade and lipids. There was some other nasty brain stuff too I cant remember.

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I’m just trying to be on the least amount of drugs possible. T only would be great, to me.

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I would stick to my 8 weeks of Dose and only take the cypionate. You can lower that dose by maybe 10% if the weather retention really bothers you, but that might not fix it. Eventually that water retention should go away. We’re talking 3-4 months of consistent dosage.

Your body is healing, absorbing, changing adapting… whatever you want to call it. Expect itchy nipples and weird feelings.

They say around year 1 men feel their best consistently: until then we are looking for 80% resolution of symptoms.

I consider AI poison. We do NOT need to control estrogen levels unless your body is seriously compromised (liver damage, obesity, etc.)

I’ve never take it in a decade of TRT.

If you don’t believe me, google Dr. Rouzier and AI/estrogen management.


Yah they do that, but Optimal is when we let the body naturally dictate how much free t to e2 and DHT is generated.

Folks who live by ai are ignorant of the new data and research being put out there. They don’t believe anything yet say prove it. You prove it and they won’t read it. Or they read it and can’t understand it. Then there are are those ass hats who say the anti ai guys say “let estrogen run as high as possible” and that an ai should never be used.

Really all the data suggests is that estrogen wasn’t once a culprit. Today it’s found to be a beneficial hormone to the male. Avoid suppression at all costs.