the thib pulldowns look like you lose the top stretch as opposed to a traditional pulldown/close grip pulldown. Have you noticed that? Just seems with the lower set up of the Thib Pulldown the movement doesnt give as good a stretch on the eccentric but maybe a deeper contraction.
Do you perform any heavy rowing?
I’ve never tried these but I have always used wrist straps to help take the biceps out of the equation when doing pulldowns. Maybe I will try these as an alternative. Do you feel a better response and pump from these than with straps (if you use them)?
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
the thib pulldowns look like you lose the top stretch as opposed to a traditional pulldown/close grip pulldown. Have you noticed that? Just seems with the lower set up of the Thib Pulldown the movement doesnt give as good a stretch on the eccentric but maybe a deeper contraction.
Do you perform any heavy rowing?[/quote]
Taking a break from heavy rowing for awhile as I do this program. It just wasn’t getting me the results I needed. I’ve always struggled with lat activation. If anything I would add them in after straight arm pulldowns to get a little pre-exhaust of the lats going on and do Yates rows.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
I’ve never tried these but I have always used wrist straps to help take the biceps out of the equation when doing pulldowns. Maybe I will try these as an alternative. Do you feel a better response and pump from these than with straps (if you use them)?[/quote]
I’ve never used straps. They do take the bicep out of the equation…lol.
Interesting point above, about heavy rowing not doing much for your back. If you’ll allow me to be controversial for a moment…Does anyone else agree with me (& Jim Cordova to an extent) that perhaps deadlift arent a great upper back exercise? Jim Cordova himself admitted that they never delivered the lat development some “experts” promise.
In regards to rowing Charles Poliquin has stated that barbell rows require too much core stability and prefers db rows for lat development. Therefore Thib’s approach, away from the basics could (and is in my opinion) closer to optimal.
[quote]Peoples Victory wrote:
Interesting point above, about heavy rowing not doing much for your back. If you’ll allow me to be controversial for a moment…Does anyone else agree with me (& Jim Cordova to an extent) that perhaps deadlift arent a great upper back exercise? Jim Cordova himself admitted that they never delivered the lat development some “experts” promise. In regards to rowing Charles Poliquin has stated that barbell rows require too much core stability and prefers db rows for lat development. Therefore Thib’s approach, away from the basics could (and is in my opinion) closer to optimal. [/quote]
I’ve been saying stuff like that right from day one (even made a thread asking “why do deadlifts?”)…what a shit that stirred up! lol
Can’t believe it’s such a passionate mainstay in some peoples routines (and it’s not justified in a bodybuilding way). I ask what bodypart are you trying to increase by doing the conventional deadlift (and is it really worth it?), and the best answer was - it works “all” the blah blah muscles…OK, why don’t we all start incorporating Olympic lifting into our workouts if that’s the case? Bodybuilders must have had it wrong all along.
I do deadlifts now and then (for a power movement), but I don’t feel they (more-so conventional style DL), or bb rows are absolutely necessary for a bodybuilders back (there are more efficient exercises out there IMO).
People can be so one track minded with their exercise selection sometimes; not all exercises have the same effect on everyone.
I tend to agree with some of what you said. For me I use it to develop lower back and hamstrings. Plus its hormonal benefits, so it certainly has a place in a bodybuilding program. I just dont rely on it to build my back muscles.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I don’t feel they (more-so conventional style DL), or bb rows are absolutely necessary for a bodybuilders back (there are more efficient exercises out there IMO).
[/quote]
Out of curiosity, what exercise do you find more efficient?? As my strength increases in BB Rows, I feel like ‘stability’ is becoming more and more of an issue…
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I don’t feel they (more-so conventional style DL), or bb rows are absolutely necessary for a bodybuilders back (there are more efficient exercises out there IMO).
[/quote]
Out of curiosity, what exercise do you find more efficient?? As my strength increases in BB Rows, I feel like ‘stability’ is becoming more and more of an issue…[/quote]
Personally, any exercise where I’m more stable/where lower back isn’t rounded as much, I can hit it better. Dumbbell rows, rack pulls, T-bar rows (and variations) etc.
Again, this is a matter of build. Some people are natural deadlifters.
Haven’t done machines yet for back (train at home), so can’t comment on them.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Peoples Victory wrote:
Interesting point above, about heavy rowing not doing much for your back. If you’ll allow me to be controversial for a moment…Does anyone else agree with me (& Jim Cordova to an extent) that perhaps deadlift arent a great upper back exercise? Jim Cordova himself admitted that they never delivered the lat development some “experts” promise. In regards to rowing Charles Poliquin has stated that barbell rows require too much core stability and prefers db rows for lat development. Therefore Thib’s approach, away from the basics could (and is in my opinion) closer to optimal. [/quote]
I’ve been saying stuff like that right from day one (even made a thread asking “why do deadlifts?”)…what a shit that stirred up! lol
Can’t believe it’s such a passionate mainstay in some peoples routines (and it’s not justified in a bodybuilding way). I ask what bodypart are you trying to increase by doing the conventional deadlift (and is it really worth it?), and the best answer was - it works “all” the blah blah muscles…OK, why don’t we all start incorporating Olympic lifting into our workouts if that’s the case? Bodybuilders must have had it wrong all along.
I do deadlifts now and then (for a power movement), but I don’t feel they (more-so conventional style DL), or bb rows are absolutely necessary for a bodybuilders back (there are more efficient exercises out there IMO).
People can be so one track minded with their exercise selection sometimes; not all exercises have the same effect on everyone.[/quote]
While I agree with your points made, ironically, I must say that heavy deadlifting has done wonders for my lower and upperback development. BB rows…not so much for anything…lol.
To OP if you have trouble activating your lats then Thib pulldowns may be effective for you. The way I learned was doing nautilus pullovers before the bulk of my back work.
I just dont agree with most of the above posts. I feel that many people who dont feel it in their lats during BB Rows is because they are using too much weight, form is off (e.g. pulling to the chest), or not enough time under the bar to learn how to use the right muscle. If stability is a problem put BB Rows towards the end of your routine so you dont have to use as much weight.
As for deadlifts, I do them at the end of my back routine so i dont have to do as much weight but i still fatigue the complete back. Another useful strategy (influenced by Yates) is to deadlift but dont touch the floor. Stop at mid shin. If you dont feel it in your lats you might have been born without them.
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
To OP if you have trouble activating your lats then Thib pulldowns may be effective for you. The way I learned was doing nautilus pullovers before the bulk of my back work.
I just dont agree with most of the above posts. I feel that many people who dont feel it in their lats during BB Rows is because they are using too much weight, form is off (e.g. pulling to the chest), or not enough time under the bar to learn how to use the right muscle. If stability is a problem put BB Rows towards the end of your routine so you dont have to use as much weight.
As for deadlifts, I do them at the end of my back routine so i dont have to do as much weight but i still fatigue the complete back. Another useful strategy (influenced by Yates) is to deadlift but dont touch the floor. Stop at mid shin. If you dont feel it in your lats you might have been born without them.
[/quote]
I guess I don’t understand what’s so sacred about BB Rows. I want a movement that isolates my lats and takes core stability out of the equation…my lower back and core and worked quite enough from squatting, front squatting, deadlifting, and trap bar deadlifting throughout the week. I wouldn’t want to do something stupid like tweak my lower back on a row, because I did heavy deads the day prior and my lower back just wanted to cave. I want an exercise for which the SOLE limiting factor for the load I can handle is the strength of my lats…not anything else.
Moreover, why would I arrange to be doing less weight on the rows?? I want to strengthen my lats.
Its not about being sacred. BB Rows use a barbell which allow you to lift more weight to overload the muscle and allows more room for progression. You dont have to do BB Rows. But I can promise you that every Mr. Olympia has done them.
And putting rows towards the end of the workout was directed towards Spidey22. You would still strengthen your lats because they are fatigued from earlier work and require less weight to reach failure plus you wouldnt have to worry about stability.
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
Its not about being sacred. BB Rows use a barbell which allow you to lift more weight to overload the muscle and allows more room for progression. You dont have to do BB Rows. But I can promise you that every Mr. Olympia has done them.
And putting rows towards the end of the workout was directed towards Spidey22. You would still strengthen your lats because they are fatigued from earlier work and require less weight to reach failure plus you wouldnt have to worry about stability.[/quote]
I have used BB Rows. And certainly will again when I’ve mastered activating my lats.
I want to point out though that there are more ways to progress than merely adding weight to the bar. Granted you won’t be adding stacks to the thibs pulldown every week, but that’s not the kind of lift it is. You could add more sets, more reps, slower reps, longer contractions…all ways to enhance the fatigue to the lats. That was something entirely missing from rows for me. Plus I have seen noticable results since the change.
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
[quote]phishfood1128 wrote:
To OP if you have trouble activating your lats then Thib pulldowns may be effective for you. The way I learned was doing nautilus pullovers before the bulk of my back work.
I just dont agree with most of the above posts. I feel that many people who dont feel it in their lats during BB Rows is because they are using too much weight, form is off (e.g. pulling to the chest), or not enough time under the bar to learn how to use the right muscle. If stability is a problem put BB Rows towards the end of your routine so you dont have to use as much weight.
As for deadlifts, I do them at the end of my back routine so i dont have to do as much weight but i still fatigue the complete back. Another useful strategy (influenced by Yates) is to deadlift but dont touch the floor. Stop at mid shin. If you dont feel it in your lats you might have been born without them.
[/quote]
I guess I don’t understand what’s so sacred about BB Rows. I want a movement that isolates my lats and takes core stability out of the equation…my lower back and core and worked quite enough from squatting, front squatting, deadlifting, and trap bar deadlifting throughout the week. I wouldn’t want to do something stupid like tweak my lower back on a row, because I did heavy deads the day prior and my lower back just wanted to cave. I want an exercise for which the SOLE limiting factor for the load I can handle is the strength of my lats…not anything else.
Moreover, why would I arrange to be doing less weight on the rows?? I want to strengthen my lats. [/quote]
That above post is proof that it depends not only on the individual, but the routine the individual is using.
It’s pretty narrow minded to say that bb rows are a must (IMO).
Yes they allow more load (depending on your build!), but what if you are prioritising deadlifts/squats (e.g. hitting lower back up to twice a week)? What if you did a heavy spine loading exercise (e.g. back squats/deadlifts) 2-3 days before you tried to do bb rows? What if you already have plenty heavy back exercises in your routine (i.e. redundancy)?
Fancy an injury anyone? lol
That’s just taking into account joints etc, let alone the extra recovery demands that you may have to account for.
An exercise is only good if it allows progression. Personally, I gotten far more stimulation from one arm t-bar rows vs bb rows. Who says you can’t load up on this lift? lol So far, I’ve been able to rep to 15+ reps with 175lbs+ on just one arm, slow and controlled, and still progressing. My progress came to a grinding halt with bb rows (lower back was weakest link and gave out all the time), whereas one arm t-bar rows has allowed continuous progression. Range of motion if perfectly fine, can get a really good stretch at the bottom.
So, again, which is better for me? 
Am I one of the few who doesn’t do rows for their lats, but for upper back??
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I guess I don’t understand what’s so sacred about BB Rows. I want a movement that isolates my lats and takes core stability out of the equation…my lower back and core and worked quite enough from squatting, front squatting, deadlifting, and trap bar deadlifting throughout the week. I wouldn’t want to do something stupid like tweak my lower back on a row, because I did heavy deads the day prior and my lower back just wanted to cave. I want an exercise for which the SOLE limiting factor for the load I can handle is the strength of my lats…not anything else.
Moreover, why would I arrange to be doing less weight on the rows?? I want to strengthen my lats. [/quote]
Something I’ve been doing lately that somewhat accomplishes what your talking about is doing a straight arm rope pull down for 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps. Really puts the burn and pump into your lats. Then go to the chest-supported row and do 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps.
The rope pull down gets you feeling your lats so you can feel it on the chest-supported row as well as being a good pre-fatigue. The chest-supported row also takes the core stability out of the equation that you you are looking for. One thing I’ve found to be helpful in pulling with the lats instead of upper back on this is to be sure and arch your back and look forward instead of looking down at the weight. Also seems to help with ROM.
And then, if you feel like it, do a drop set on the CS row and stretch the crap out of them right after.
[quote]cueball wrote:
[quote]jskrabac wrote:
I guess I don’t understand what’s so sacred about BB Rows. I want a movement that isolates my lats and takes core stability out of the equation…my lower back and core and worked quite enough from squatting, front squatting, deadlifting, and trap bar deadlifting throughout the week. I wouldn’t want to do something stupid like tweak my lower back on a row, because I did heavy deads the day prior and my lower back just wanted to cave. I want an exercise for which the SOLE limiting factor for the load I can handle is the strength of my lats…not anything else.
Moreover, why would I arrange to be doing less weight on the rows?? I want to strengthen my lats. [/quote]
Something I’ve been doing lately that somewhat accomplishes what your talking about is doing a straight arm rope pull down for 3-4 sets of 12-15 reps. Really puts the burn and pump into your lats. Then go to the chest-supported row and do 3-4 sets of 8-10 reps.
The rope pull down gets you feeling your lats so you can feel it on the chest-supported row as well as being a good pre-fatigue. The chest-supported row also takes the core stability out of the equation that you you are looking for. One thing I’ve found to be helpful in pulling with the lats instead of upper back on this is to be sure and arch your back and look forward instead of looking down at the weight. Also seems to help with ROM.
And then, if you feel like it, do a drop set on the CS row and stretch the crap out of them right after.[/quote]
Funny you mention that, cuz it’s pretty damn close to what I’m doing now. I do straight arm pulldowns with cables supersetted with either wide grip cable rows or lat pulldowns. If I do the wide-grip cable rows I’ll make sure I’m pulling the bar low into my belly and not any higher. My gym doesn’t actually have a CS row.
I’ve been doing alot better these days as I learn to master lat activation…I just wanted a critique on my Thibs pulldown…lol.
[quote]Spidey22 wrote:
Am I one of the few who doesn’t do rows for their lats, but for upper back??[/quote]
Weirdo…lol. By upper back, are you referring to rhomboids? Traps?