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Thib's Max/Cluster?HDL

Can someone please assist me in a slight question? I have read back through the Spills but can not find the full explination on how to set it up. Is it basically one lift per day? Or is it Pressing movements in one workout using the set up on different presses such as bench, shoulder press, so?

If you have the link to the Spill that explains this that would be great. Thanks to all for any assistance.

Explanation by Dave-G:

Do whatever warm up/mobility/activation you see fit - I personally do some inverted rows, hip extensions and jumps or KB swings to get rolling.

Deadlift portion:
Ramping portion: going off of the example above from my workout the other day I did 135/185/225/275/315 each for 3 reps and then switched to single reps for 345/375/405/435/465. Rest periods between these sets is basically as long as it takes to change the weight on the ligher sets and about 60 seconds on the heavier ones.

Depending on the lift and what the anticipated training max is going to be I will jump by 10-30 lbs with each subsequent set as I work up. As a rough guideline, if my max on the lift is >400 then I’ll likely use 30 lb jumps, if it is in the low 200’s then I’ll do 10-20 lb jumps. As you approach your anticipated max it is okay to start using smaller increases, especially if going for a new high. For example, following the 465 above I might have gone for 475.

Cluster portion:
Simply take 90% of whatever your training max was (for the example above 465 x .9 = 420 lbs) and perform 3 cluster sets.
A cluster set is basically: perform 1 rep/ rest 7-10 seconds/ perform 1 rep / rest 7-10 seconds…until you can no longer complete a solid rep. This is one cluster set. The important part is to be strict about not resting longer than 10 seconds between reps.
Rest about 90-120 seconds between clusters or as long as you need in order to feel ready to go on the next cluster.
Your performance in the cluster sets dictates what you do next in the HDL portion. If over the 3 cluster sets you complete > 17 total reps (ie you get 7 reps in the first set, 6 in the second, and 5 in the third one or something like that) then you will do your HDL sets using a 4/4/3/3/2/2/1/1/ rep scheme. If you get < 17 total reps over the 3 cluster sets then you will use a 5/4/3/2/1 rep scheme on the HDL portion. The key is to try as hard as you can to get as many cluster reps as possible without losing your lifting form.

HDL portion:

Whichever rep scheme you end up using, as dictated by your cluster performance, the HDL sets go like this:

Take 65-70% of your training max (from the example above 465 x .65 = 300 lbs)

First HDL set (if using the 5/4/3/2/1 scheme): 5 reps/ rest 15 seconds/ 4 reps/ rest 15 seconds/ 3 reps/ rest 15 seconds/ 2 reps/ rest 15 seconds/ 1 rep

If your cluster performance dictates that you use the 4/4/3/3/2/2/1/1 scheme do it like this:
4 reps/ rest 15 seconds/ 4 reps/ rest 15 seconds/ 3 reps/ rest 15 seconds…all the way donwn to the 1 rep sets

Rest periods between HDL sets will vary depending on the lift used (ie I rest alot longer between deadlift HDL sets than I do on bench press HDL sets). Basically, rest for as little time as required to be able to perform well on the next set.

Additional notes: on the deadlift you do NOT use an iso-hold after each HDL set but on other lifts (TBDL/bench press/overhead press/high pulls/deadstart rows) you can.

After completing a ramp/cluster/HDL session you will feel trashed, especially with deadlifts, but you can do either a bit of explosive work or a pump layer for the targetted muscle group if you feel it is necessary. Personally, I often do a bit of explosive stuff but I’ve never done the pump layer.

I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Where are you setting the pins on pressing movements?

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Where are you setting the pins on pressing movements? [/quote]

just above the chest like 3-5 inches
I just dislike anything to do with pins because it never had any carryover to the actual full lifts for me and my joints seem to hate ( especially shoulders)
Another slight on the system is that it very exhausting mentally and it becomes boring using only one move
I like variety in my workouts

anyway I use it on legs and seems to be going well
I go full squat ramp to 460
then reverse band clusters 7 reps x 2-3 sets
then reverse band HDL 3 rounds
pump stuff on leg press and leg extension

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Two things–1) reverse band squatting usually “feels” way easier on my joints than regulsr because of the deload at the bottom. That doesnt surprise me 2) bench probably hurts your joints because of a crappy set-up (ie: not tight enough, improper shoulder blade positioning, elbow position, wrists roll back, etc) or technique problem (same list and then some).

I have no idea what you are talking about with the “i like full movements and lifting heavy” comment. You have full ROM on all the lifts CT uses or you are setting up the pins wrong, and you do lift heavy with his system…or is 90+% of 1RM not heavy enough for you?

Confused.

I wonder for if this approach can be successful for bodybuilding. It doesn’t seem to address stimulation for all the muscles to have a balanced pleasing physique (side/rear delts, bi’s/tri’s ect)

What do you guys think about this set up?

1)Incline tilt 2)High pull +some lat work 3)Decline tilt 4) Front squat + Rows 5) Delts (side/rear) + Arms

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I wonder for if this approach can be successful for bodybuilding. It doesn’t seem to address stimulation for all the muscles to have a balanced pleasing physique (side/rear delts, bi’s/tri’s ect)

What do you guys think about this set up?

1)Incline tilt 2)High pull +some lat work 3)Decline tilt 4) Front squat + Rows 5) Delts (side/rear) + Arms

[/quote]
Thibs says that the delts get enough stimulation with the pressing + high pulls, and tricepts get enough stimulation from the pressing. Some additional bicept work could be added though. I can’t find exactly where he talks about this but if you go through the spills you can sort all the responses from just Thibs and you should find it in there.

I’m not saying any of this is necessarily the best way of doing things, but I’ve read through just about all of the spills for the last couple months, and I’m just telling you what he said about the questions you asked.

I should also add that the goal of the program, and I’m paraphrasing Thibs here, is to look like an NFL linebacker…not necessarily a bodybuilder.

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I wonder for if this approach can be successful for bodybuilding. It doesn’t seem to address stimulation for all the muscles to have a balanced pleasing physique (side/rear delts, bi’s/tri’s ect)

What do you guys think about this set up?

1)Incline tilt 2)High pull +some lat work 3)Decline tilt 4) Front squat + Rows 5) Delts (side/rear) + Arms
[/quote]

Well, I’ve got a lot of thoughts on this because I’ve been thinking almost non-stop about this system. I can tell this is going to be a novel length post so I apologize in advance. 1) I believe that Thib’s system can be used very effectively for bodybuilding, provided a few prerequisites are observed:

Thib will adapt a BASE system to whatever needs the client wants. And a lot of people like to doubt it until the results come in. Case in point–Darryl Gee used a completely and utterly unconventional training system from CT to come into the 202 Olympia and Take 2nd. He gained 10 lbs of stage muscle DURING THE PREP while doing all kinds of athletic movements and prowler pushing, sled dragging, and a bunch of shit nobody thought could possibly work for a bodybuilder let alone an Olympia contender. I remember a lot of people on other sites and even here were saying how the whole 16 workouts a week, no treadmill cardio, sled dragging, thing was just not “how its done”…until he showed up in stellar condition and 10 lbs heavier and kicked serious ass.

Even Prof X, who’s one of the single biggest “do what bodybuilders do in ages past to get huge” guy admitted how hard and effective it was after he showed up in Boot Camp to train in a style completely different from what he and a bunch of other bodybuilders and strong dudes train. No offense meant to X, I like the guy a lot and he knows training and also has a lot of respect for CT–just saying. Lots of people didn’t like it. Just like lots of people will say this can never work for competitive bodybuilding either. They were wrong then, they will be wrong now too.

NOW–that being said–CT adapts his system to specific needs like any stellar coach. The “athletic split” that Darryl Gee used was fundamentally the same as what he was explaining in the spills to us all back then, but Darryl was doing a number of things that he didn’t tell us to do, or recommended something different to people asking question, precisely because we weren’t doing competitive bodybuilding but some other sport/goal. I wouldn’t call them “details” that changed per se, but CT definitely kept the integrity of his system’s core concepts intact while changing things for sports or disciplines and goals.

What this means is that the current HDL system he is describing in the spills will probably have a couple other elements of it depending on bodybuilding, powerlifting, olympic lifting (He’s already used it with a couple olympic lifters and powerlifters). He HAS NOT said what he would specifically do to target weak points for a competitive bodybuilder. No doubt he has a plan, he just hasn’t said much about how to do it, but THESE ARE THE THINGS WE DO KNOW from him:

  1. He says this is the fastest way to add muscle and density that he has ever found or trained

  2. He says that this has worked with clients from all sports that he has tried it with (football, oly lifting, powerlifting, others)

  3. He says it is ONLY one lift a day (exception being 3-4 sets of lat work after high pulls)

  4. He says that it is designed SPECIFICALLY to work with heavy hardcore peri-workout nutrition, not a basic whey post workout shake. I can personally attest to this point. No comparison at all–marketing hype or not–between whey/carbs, and MAG-10/Surge Workout Fuel or Anaconda. I feel waaay better on the latter and I’ve been doing this long enough to know when something is tried repeatedly it really works. Way less soreness, way more pump, way more recovery. I don’t use a pre-workout NO booster, maybe caffeine or Spike if its a terrible day, so I know that this increase in pump has only one reason because nothing else has changed. That is my peri-workout supp going to MAG-10/Surge Workout Fuel. I’ve always liked Biotest’s stuff, but I’m not a fanboy–I’ve used a lot of other stuff from other companies and liked it. But, this is very noticeable to me. So much so that I have attempted to change my budget to always get the stuff.

So, if something is the fastest way to build dense muscle according to him, I have to think it would be mightily effective for bodybuilding, provided you a) pay attention to #4 and pick the right exercises. Would this shore up aesthetic weak points? Maybe, maybe you need a bit of a tweak. But as far as muscle gain goes, that’s pretty much what bodybuilding is about yeah?

I’ll say this–I’ve done that system for about 2-3 weeks for my bench only. I can already tell a big big difference in look and feel of my pressing muscles–triceps/chest/shoulders. Noticeable. Sitting at my computer, I feel semi-pumped right now. I thought it was kind of a overstatment when CT said that about himself in the spills when he was working on designing it and wouldn’t tell us. Not market-hype mind you, more of a “I’m so excited about what I’m working on I’m giving in to hyperbole” sort of thing. I, for one, notice some of what he is talking about.

I’ll also say this: I am a tricep and shoulder dominant presser. I almost never feel the bench in my pecs. Every single time I have had a HDL session I have felt it big-time in my pecs, and I use a big PL style arch an tucked in elbows. Color me impressed because I’ve never been able to stimulate my pecs from benching–then again for me it wasn’t a huge deal because I was after numbers, not aesthetics. But this is win-win for me.

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I wonder for if this approach can be successful for bodybuilding. It doesn’t seem to address stimulation for all the muscles to have a balanced pleasing physique (side/rear delts, bi’s/tri’s ect)

What do you guys think about this set up?

1)Incline tilt 2)High pull +some lat work 3)Decline tilt 4) Front squat + Rows 5) Delts (side/rear) + Arms
[/quote]

You don’t have overhead pressing at all in here. That is a problem.

I would not do rows after front squat. Just do the one lift. Trust me, you’ll feel like a car hit you if you do it to the letter. Also I would just do another high pull day instead of “delts”. It’s important to do his system as he says before trying to tweak it. Same rules apply as if you were to do Westside or Stronglifts or 5/3/1 or whatever. Do as written before changing. If after 4 weeks you want more shoulders, do some lateral raises and shit after high pulls. Do arms in a second workout, not with a cluster/HDL workout. Exception might be if you’re super weak in the high pull then you won’t be good enough at technique to be wiped after the day, so maybe a few sets of arms then. But really, seriously, just do them as a separate workout.

I’ve also noticed that it seems the high pull day is a sort of “swing day”–you can put it day before/after squats to hammer legs and back harder because a proper high pull really hits the hamstrings and glutes, so it’s a sort of pre-exhaust day or post exhaust day before or after squats for hams and back, or you can put it by OH press to hammer shoulders harder because the high pull hits the shoulders and back really well when done properly. In other words you can use the placement of the high pull day to change the emphasis of what muscles are worked hardest in a weekly split.

It is important to do the high pull with good technique though. That means it’s not an arm pull, and not a “cheated” upright row. It’s a high pull. The arms don’t do shit. If you don’t do it with good technique, you won’t get the benefit out of it and that is the entire bloody point of having it in the system. CT has said that a number of times. Chest to the ceiling, power thru the hips sort of like a kettlebell swing (not really, but thats the closest I can come in 1 phrase), elbows pulled straight up high and bar close to your body, with a slight pull back of the elbows at the very very tip top of the movement. That last bit will take time to feel, but getting say 90% of the benefit of the high pull is dependent on the first 3 things. Those are the Olympic style cues, the last bit is a tweak for bodybuilding feeling.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Two things–1) reverse band squatting usually “feels” way easier on my joints than regulsr because of the deload at the bottom. That doesnt surprise me 2) bench probably hurts your joints because of a crappy set-up (ie: not tight enough, improper shoulder blade positioning, elbow position, wrists roll back, etc) or technique problem (same list and then some).

I have no idea what you are talking about with the “i like full movements and lifting heavy” comment. You have full ROM on all the lifts CT uses or you are setting up the pins wrong, and you do lift heavy with his system…or is 90+% of 1RM not heavy enough for you?

Confused.[/quote]

Aaragon read my post above yours
I am not some noob I know how to setup a bench press
pin pressing just causes me problem because it is a deadstart movement making it hard on the joints (even with reverse bands)
I am not the only one who thinks so
here check Dave Tate’s latest article for his opinion on pin pressing
:http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/lessons_from_the_dead_zone_the_bench

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Two things–1) reverse band squatting usually “feels” way easier on my joints than regulsr because of the deload at the bottom. That doesnt surprise me 2) bench probably hurts your joints because of a crappy set-up (ie: not tight enough, improper shoulder blade positioning, elbow position, wrists roll back, etc) or technique problem (same list and then some).

I have no idea what you are talking about with the “i like full movements and lifting heavy” comment. You have full ROM on all the lifts CT uses or you are setting up the pins wrong, and you do lift heavy with his system…or is 90+% of 1RM not heavy enough for you?

Confused.[/quote]

Aaragon read my post above yours
I am not some noob I know how to setup a bench press
pin pressing just causes me problem because it is a deadstart movement making it hard on the joints (even with reverse bands)
I am not the only one who thinks so
here check Dave Tate’s latest article for his opinion on pin pressing
:http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/lessons_from_the_dead_zone_the_bench
[/quote]

Take the sand out of your vag. Sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. I wasn’t trying to be offensive with the use of “crappy”. Tate uses words like shit, suck and good to describe objective problems with technical ability, set-up, or overall strength level not to personally tell you you’re a worthless human being or something stupid and petty like that. I did the same. Sorry you’re so thin-skinned, if you like I can be try to offend you personally next time instead of just being straight up about possible problems.

And yes, I am very aware of Tate’s issues with pin press. I’ve been reading and following both him and Louie for…oh, about 12 years now. He has a very vaild point regarding powerlifting. Then again, that’s POWERLIFTING and not BODYBUILDING. CT’s system is geared towards muscle gain with strength as a second goal, but NOT the primary goal. Also a lot of people do notice benefit to pin presses, otherwise they wouldn’t have been mentioned by other powerlifters. I prefer boards very much over pins. But, for purposes of this system–aka muscle gains and NOT HAVING A SPOTTER–pins are probably fine don’t you think?

Or maybe you were offended by my asking you what you meant by “full range of movement and lifting heavy” since a) pins are set on all movements such that the full ROM is achieved with the exception of pin bench, which is the equivalent of a 1 board (or all but full ROM) and b) that 90% or more of your max 1RM is the top weight you work up to. Which is heavy by almost any definition. So I asked for clarification from you about that. Maybe that offended you. Sorry.

I feel like theres no longhead tri stimulation which is a no no for a pleasing physique and overhead pressing doesn’t do anything for my shoulders
And im not doing legs layer style

Is everything done from the pins with this system or only cluster sets? Or is it up to the user

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I feel like theres no longhead tri stimulation which is a no no for a pleasing physique and overhead pressing doesn’t do anything for my shoulders
And im not doing legs layer style

Is everything done from the pins with this system or only cluster sets? Or is it up to the user[/quote]

All lifts are from pins/blocks.

If you want to stimulate your triceps directly, have an arm day. If OHP doesn’t work your shoulders don’t do it.

CT is using incline/decline bench ( 15 degree angle ) and snatch grip high pulls to develop his shoulders.

I can’t say I blame you for the legs, it’s a painful experience :slight_smile:

[quote]corstijeir wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I feel like theres no longhead tri stimulation which is a no no for a pleasing physique and overhead pressing doesn’t do anything for my shoulders
And im not doing legs layer style

Is everything done from the pins with this system or only cluster sets? Or is it up to the user[/quote]

All lifts are from pins/blocks.

If you want to stimulate your triceps directly, have an arm day. If OHP doesn’t work your shoulders don’t do it.

CT is using incline/decline bench ( 15 degree angle ) and snatch grip high pulls to develop his shoulders.

I can’t say I blame you for the legs, it’s a painful experience :)[/quote]

Haha, yes. I agree with corst. Of OH pressing doesnt do it for you, don’t. Ive noticed a very potent combination of bench and power snatch ove the past few months, which is pretty similar to CT’s tilted bench + high pull. Done almost no direct shoulder work for months now and pretty pleased with the direction my shoulders are heading anyway. I sort of discovered this independently of the layered approach of CT’s, because again he wasn’t describing it for the longest time. I really just wanted to improve my power snatch and my bench at the time, but I like the results.

I might suggest doing 2 incline tilt bench days, as I noticed still plenty of pec stimulation on incline tilt bench, but good anterior delt work too. and i’d still suggest doing 2nd high pull day where you have delts written. If that doesnt hit you right, you could always take the day after high pulls and add some lateral raises in for more volume along eith your direct arm work. Just my two cents.

Apologies for spell errors, im on my phone. Ans no, I definitely do not blame you fpr doing legs differently lol

Oh, btw for myself I usually do some form of power snatch work every single day I am in the gym before my main lift. So I usually get it 5x or more a week.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Two things–1) reverse band squatting usually “feels” way easier on my joints than regulsr because of the deload at the bottom. That doesnt surprise me 2) bench probably hurts your joints because of a crappy set-up (ie: not tight enough, improper shoulder blade positioning, elbow position, wrists roll back, etc) or technique problem (same list and then some).

I have no idea what you are talking about with the “i like full movements and lifting heavy” comment. You have full ROM on all the lifts CT uses or you are setting up the pins wrong, and you do lift heavy with his system…or is 90+% of 1RM not heavy enough for you?

Confused.[/quote]

Aaragon read my post above yours
I am not some noob I know how to setup a bench press
pin pressing just causes me problem because it is a deadstart movement making it hard on the joints (even with reverse bands)
I am not the only one who thinks so
here check Dave Tate’s latest article for his opinion on pin pressing
:http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/lessons_from_the_dead_zone_the_bench
[/quote]

Take the sand out of your vag. Sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. I wasn’t trying to be offensive with the use of “crappy”. Tate uses words like shit, suck and good to describe objective problems with technical ability, set-up, or overall strength level not to personally tell you you’re a worthless human being or something stupid and petty like that. I did the same. Sorry you’re so thin-skinned, if you like I can be try to offend you personally next time instead of just being straight up about possible problems.

And yes, I am very aware of Tate’s issues with pin press. I’ve been reading and following both him and Louie for…oh, about 12 years now. He has a very vaild point regarding powerlifting. Then again, that’s POWERLIFTING and not BODYBUILDING. CT’s system is geared towards muscle gain with strength as a second goal, but NOT the primary goal. Also a lot of people do notice benefit to pin presses, otherwise they wouldn’t have been mentioned by other powerlifters. I prefer boards very much over pins. But, for purposes of this system–aka muscle gains and NOT HAVING A SPOTTER–pins are probably fine don’t you think?

Or maybe you were offended by my asking you what you meant by “full range of movement and lifting heavy” since a) pins are set on all movements such that the full ROM is achieved with the exception of pin bench, which is the equivalent of a 1 board (or all but full ROM) and b) that 90% or more of your max 1RM is the top weight you work up to. Which is heavy by almost any definition. So I asked for clarification from you about that. Maybe that offended you. Sorry.[/quote]

I wasn’t offended. I don’t know where you got this from my post.
I meant exactly what I wrote, I like using full range of motion with heavy weights
CT himself said that for some people pin-pressing doesn’t carryover to the real move
Maybe you shouldn’t take everything he suggests as the bible especially when he is changing his opinion about training constantly.
I mean he went from explosive, isolation, prowler and then rings only to go back now to more intensive shorter work which is HDL.
I ll take part of his system and apply it in my training but for me I need more variety

Thanks for the responses. One thing though…How many parts are most folks working? Is this basically one part per day? Looks like you may be whooped after doing one part. Granted, by one part I understand it is a compound movement hitting multiple muscles. Just curious if two movements is considered. Thanks again to all.

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
I wonder for if this approach can be successful for bodybuilding. It doesn’t seem to address stimulation for all the muscles to have a balanced pleasing physique (side/rear delts, bi’s/tri’s ect)

What do you guys think about this set up?

1)Incline tilt 2)High pull +some lat work 3)Decline tilt 4) Front squat + Rows 5) Delts (side/rear) + Arms
[/quote]

It’s designed FOR BODYBUILDING. Worry about the “balanced, pleasing physique” issues as you approach the size and leanness bodybuilders are after. Don’t worry about painting the ceiling prior to building the foundation.

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]ronald1919 wrote:
I have a couple of problems with CT’s new system
I use it with reverse band squat and it works great (I ramp with regular squat)
but I find pressing from pins to be extremely hard on the joints
same thing with bottom pins squats…very exhausting especially with minimal rest
personally I like full movements and lifting heavy[/quote]

Two things–1) reverse band squatting usually “feels” way easier on my joints than regulsr because of the deload at the bottom. That doesnt surprise me 2) bench probably hurts your joints because of a crappy set-up (ie: not tight enough, improper shoulder blade positioning, elbow position, wrists roll back, etc) or technique problem (same list and then some).

I have no idea what you are talking about with the “i like full movements and lifting heavy” comment. You have full ROM on all the lifts CT uses or you are setting up the pins wrong, and you do lift heavy with his system…or is 90+% of 1RM not heavy enough for you?

Confused.[/quote]

Aaragon read my post above yours
I am not some noob I know how to setup a bench press
pin pressing just causes me problem because it is a deadstart movement making it hard on the joints (even with reverse bands)
I am not the only one who thinks so
here check Dave Tate’s latest article for his opinion on pin pressing
:http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/lessons_from_the_dead_zone_the_bench
[/quote]

Take the sand out of your vag. Sorry I offended your delicate sensibilities. I wasn’t trying to be offensive with the use of “crappy”. Tate uses words like shit, suck and good to describe objective problems with technical ability, set-up, or overall strength level not to personally tell you you’re a worthless human being or something stupid and petty like that. I did the same. Sorry you’re so thin-skinned, if you like I can be try to offend you personally next time instead of just being straight up about possible problems.

And yes, I am very aware of Tate’s issues with pin press. I’ve been reading and following both him and Louie for…oh, about 12 years now. He has a very vaild point regarding powerlifting. Then again, that’s POWERLIFTING and not BODYBUILDING. CT’s system is geared towards muscle gain with strength as a second goal, but NOT the primary goal. Also a lot of people do notice benefit to pin presses, otherwise they wouldn’t have been mentioned by other powerlifters. I prefer boards very much over pins. But, for purposes of this system–aka muscle gains and NOT HAVING A SPOTTER–pins are probably fine don’t you think?

Or maybe you were offended by my asking you what you meant by “full range of movement and lifting heavy” since a) pins are set on all movements such that the full ROM is achieved with the exception of pin bench, which is the equivalent of a 1 board (or all but full ROM) and b) that 90% or more of your max 1RM is the top weight you work up to. Which is heavy by almost any definition. So I asked for clarification from you about that. Maybe that offended you. Sorry.[/quote]

I wasn’t offended. I don’t know where you got this from my post.
I meant exactly what I wrote, I like using full range of motion with heavy weights
CT himself said that for some people pin-pressing doesn’t carryover to the real move
Maybe you shouldn’t take everything he suggests as the bible especially when he is changing his opinion about training constantly.
I mean he went from explosive, isolation, prowler and then rings only to go back now to more intensive shorter work which is HDL.
I ll take part of his system and apply it in my training but for me I need more variety [/quote]

to each his own. Having started using CT’s system, I HOPE others discard it giving me a relative advantage!