They Hate Us for Our Freedoms

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

Wow. Are you still on about how the occupation of Iraq is a front in the war on terror? Please, explain to us how Iraq was linked to 9/11 and Al Qada.

Perhaps you should read up on history. Start with wikipedia and look for Iraq and Iran.[/quote]

Well, that aside, my point was that Islamism existed prior to Iraq and should be remembered as such. Keep up.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
This regurgitated garbage that Islamists would be peace-loving gardeners if only the West would stop its imperialist ambitions not only defies ordinary explanation and common sense, but it is the height of Western conceit that we can constantly explain what really motivates them to do the things they do, rather than merely believing the reasons they are more than happy to tell us.

It has become tired. The Islamic culture of conquest and dominance predates the US. It was sharply curtailed with the fall of the Ottoman Empire. What has changed? Only one thing - Islamic societies never went through an Enlightenment, and their inability to keep pace with the modern science of war via their own culture’s produce forces them to turn to international roguery to pursue their ambitions - terror, trafficking in weaponry, and using what commodities they do control as leverage.

Use common sense - Islamic societies simply can’t make the kinds of weapons they need to re-establish the caliphate. There is no Muslim equivalent to Lockheed, no Islamic universities producing engineers to create a 20th century war machine. So terror is the tactic of choice.

But the ideology hasn’t changed.

The idea that if only the West would stop its imperialism, the Islamists would have no grievance and therefore would not attack the West is shoddy and oversimplified cause-and-effect - if this were true, where are the dividends from protecting Muslims in the Balkans and the millions of dollars in aid to Muslim countries?

Fact is, Islamists are going to do what they want, regardless of our actions, for they are motivated by an independent ideology that only cares about its self-righteous zealotry.

And one other thing - the almost unbearable irony is that Islamists believe in and practice the purest form of imperialism. They want dominance, they want territory. They want non-Muslims to submit to their rule. Tragically, the group of people in the world that are the most unapologetic endorsers of imperialism are the ones that are painted as helpless victims of that ideology - imperialism - that they openly support and approve of. Wow. Moronic.

Islamists aren’t anti-imperialists trying to throw off an aggressor in the name of liberation - they want a harsher form of domination. They want Taliban-type governments. They actively seek tyranny. But they are somehow victims of imperialism?

To continue to try and characterize them as poor victims of Western imperialism is a sad joke.[/quote]

Kind of makes you wonder why the neo-cons thought they could bring democracy to the region. What a colossal F up!

The only group more naive than liberals is neo-cons.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The only reason we empathize with the Jewish state of Israel is because of our (America’s) guilt over not getting involved in Europe until we were scared Russia was going to take Eastern Europe. It’s not like Jews were well loved in this country before then.[/quote]

Um, no…have you ever read revelations or heard about ‘The Rapture’.

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
Um, no…have you ever read revelations or heard about ‘The Rapture’.

[/quote]
Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on your opinion) it wasn’t required reading in any of my undergraduate physics classes.

[quote]doogie wrote:
They hate us because we don’t bow to Mecca five times a day, and our glorious existence is proof that Allah isn’t the way to happiness.[/quote]

I will assume you’re not actively and gratuitously fueling the hatred on both sides, and that it was sarcasm.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
This regurgitated garbage that Islamists would be peace-loving gardeners if only the West would stop its imperialist ambitions not only defies ordinary explanation and common sense, but it is the height of Western conceit that we can constantly explain what really motivates them to do the things they do, rather than merely believing the reasons they are more than happy to tell us. [/quote]

You use the term “Islamists”, and yet go on talking about the history of Islam. This is most insensitive of you and only shows the extent of your misinformation. Islamism emerged in the last couple of decades after the strangulation of the Arab nationalist movement by the West.

Keep in mind that originally, Hamas was the work of Israel and AlQaeda that of the US. I can’t possibly sum up half a century of history in a post, but if you did some homework and diversified your news sources, it might mitigate your sentiment.

Usama&co is admired in the Arab world for his balls, in the same way you admire a daredevil. Admiring him doesn’t prevent you from codemning his actions and thinking he’s insane. That you got a different picture from your media is sheer propaganda.

If you think the hatred you’re refering to has anything to do with religion, go down to Latin America and ask people what they think of the US! The absolute majority hates your guts. Heck, it’s pretty common in Europe to see “F*ck USA” tagged on walls.

The US has always been a bully but traditionally tried to do so discretly. The recent arrogance your government is displaying is not at all helping.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Um, no…have you ever read revelations or heard about ‘The Rapture’.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on your opinion) it wasn’t required reading in any of my undergraduate physics classes.
[/quote]

It was not required reading in any of my under graduate engineering classes either.

Google ‘revelations, rapture, israel’ and get back to me.

Are you trying tell me that you are lazy or you don’t need to read anything besides a linear equations text book?

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Marmadogg wrote:
Um, no…have you ever read revelations or heard about ‘The Rapture’.

Unfortunately, (or fortunately depending on your opinion) it wasn’t required reading in any of my undergraduate physics classes.

It was not required reading in any of my under graduate engineering classes either.

Google ‘revelations, rapture, israel’ and get back to me.

Are you trying tell me that you are lazy or you don’t need to read anything besides a linear equations text book?[/quote]
Well, I find mathematics a little more interesting than prophecy–though, linear equations are trivial for the problems I am dealing with (in fact, there are relatively few interesting problems that are linear in nature, but I digress).

Besides this, I read plenty outside of my own profession; however, I am not fond of religious texts and I choose not to legitimize these religious beleifs. Life is too short to worry about what happens when I die.

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
I hear this touted over and over again; “they hate us for our freedoms.”[/quote]

They don’t hate us for our freedoms. They hate the U.S. for not minding it’s own business. What we have been experiencing is called “blowback”. We do something to them, they do something back. It’s been going on for years and really got going when we used Afghanistan as a pawn to help bring down the USSR. That was during the Carter administration and it just got worse from there.

It’s not about what Americans themselves are doing in general. It’s what our own government is doing behind the backs of American citizens that is the problem. My question is how much are we not being told. What has yet to be brought to light? How many more Iran/Contra like problems has our government created without our knowledge?

It’s because they believe in a grand conspiracy involving Jewish world domination. That the jews literally drink blood, and are spawned from apes ,pigs, etc. No wonder they got along with Hitler so well. That whole Jew extermination thing, you know. Guess that’s why the Grand Mufti was such a Nazi pal.

Doesn’ help that from childhood they are taught that Muslims are to rule the world and the Kafirs (infedels). Doesn’t help that they’re taught the ape/pig/jews drink the blood of children. That Jihad is a duty. That suicide martyrs recieve virgins, to relieve them of their sexual frustration, in paradise. Indeed, makes the Hitler Youth programs pale in comparison.

How long will the west keep blaming itself?

Spain, Germany, the UK, US, Russia, Thailand, Phillipines, France, Canada, Italy, throughout the Mideast, throughout Africa, etc. No, obviously it has to be the world that can’t get along with them. Not they, that can’t get along with the world.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
It’s because they believe in a grand conspiracy involving Jewish world domination. That the jews literally drink blood, and are spawned from apes ,pigs, etc.[/quote]

Your relaying of such misconceptions just goes to show how well the whole propaganda is working. Nobody rational would believe that load of crap!!! The same people you’re refering have been living with Jews in harmony for centuries and to this day, Jewish communities are part and parcel of the Arab world (with a couple of exceptions).

Saying that there’s an “inherent” hatred of the Jews is scandalous. Arabs, throughout history, have been rescuing the persecuted Jews every time there was a rise in anti-semitism in Europe ever since the birth of Islam. Do some homework! Start by learning the history behind Jihad which clearly you don’t know squat about.

They - as you like to refer to them - watch TV, read books and surf the web. That’s where the anti-Zionist feeling emerges from. The daily massacre of children in Palestine is certainly not helping in mitigating the feeling. The double standard is pretty obvious to any non-biased observer. To quote Henry Kissinger (a Jew himself and an insider in global politics): “Any people who have been persecuted for two thousand years must be doing something wrong”.

As for the “grand conspiracy”, it certainly is the impression I’m getting as well, given the influence the Jewish lobby has on the US. When was the last president to stand up to Israel? Yep, Kennedy. I’m not trying to draw any link between his death and the Israeli state. I’m merely pointing out that it was loooong ago. Look at how many vetoes the US has on resolutions concerning Israel. Of course, it’s not the Jews fault that they have so much affluence. Yet, claiming that any group can make his voice heard is extremely naive. It’s a logic reminiscent of the “American dream” and can be debunked fairly easily. But that’s clearly out of the scope here…

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It’s because they believe in a grand conspiracy involving Jewish world domination. That the jews literally drink blood, and are spawned from apes ,pigs, etc.

Your relaying of such misconceptions just goes to show how well the whole propaganda is working. Nobody rational would believe that load of crap!!! The same people you’re refering have been living with Jews in harmony for centuries and to this day, Jewish communities are part and parcel of the Arab world (with a couple of exceptions).

Saying that there’s an “inherent” hatred of the Jews is scandalous. Arabs, throughout history, have been rescuing the persecuted Jews every time there was a rise in anti-semitism in Europe ever since the birth of Islam. Do some homework! Start by learning the history behind Jihad which clearly you don’t know squat about.

They - as you like to refer to them - watch TV, read books and surf the web. That’s where the anti-Zionist feeling emerges from. The daily massacre of children in Palestine is certainly not helping in mitigating the feeling. The double standard is pretty obvious to any non-biased observer. To quote Henry Kissinger (a Jew himself and an insider in global politics): “Any people who have been persecuted for two thousand years must be doing something wrong”.

As for the “grand conspiracy”, it certainly is the impression I’m getting as well, given the influence the Jewish lobby has on the US. When was the last president to stand up to Israel? Yep, Kennedy. I’m not trying to draw any link between his death and the Israeli state. I’m merely pointing out that it was loooong ago. Look at how many vetoes the US has on resolutions concerning Israel. Of course, it’s not the Jews fault that they have so much affluence. Yet, claiming that any group can make his voice heard is extremely naive. It’s a logic reminiscent of the “American dream” and can be debunked fairly easily. But that’s clearly out of the scope here…[/quote]

I’d suggest you learn more about the popular media, schooling, clerics found throughout the mid-east. I posted a well done documentary in a post “Radical Islam - A primer.” By the way, thank you for illustrating the “jewish conspiracy” phobia.

Lixy, can you tell us a bit about the Grand Mufti’s role with Hitler?

[quote]lixy wrote:
Sloth wrote:
It’s because they believe in a grand conspiracy involving Jewish world domination. That the jews literally drink blood, and are spawned from apes ,pigs, etc.

Your relaying of such misconceptions just goes to show how well the whole propaganda is working. Nobody rational would believe that load of crap!!! The same people you’re refering have been living with Jews in harmony for centuries and to this day, Jewish communities are part and parcel of the Arab world (with a couple of exceptions).

Saying that there’s an “inherent” hatred of the Jews is scandalous. Arabs, throughout history, have been rescuing the persecuted Jews every time there was a rise in anti-semitism in Europe ever since the birth of Islam. Do some homework! Start by learning the history behind Jihad which clearly you don’t know squat about.

They - as you like to refer to them - watch TV, read books and surf the web. That’s where the anti-Zionist feeling emerges from. The daily massacre of children in Palestine is certainly not helping in mitigating the feeling. The double standard is pretty obvious to any non-biased observer. To quote Henry Kissinger (a Jew himself and an insider in global politics): “Any people who have been persecuted for two thousand years must be doing something wrong”.

As for the “grand conspiracy”, it certainly is the impression I’m getting as well, given the influence the Jewish lobby has on the US. When was the last president to stand up to Israel? Yep, Kennedy. I’m not trying to draw any link between his death and the Israeli state. I’m merely pointing out that it was loooong ago. Look at how many vetoes the US has on resolutions concerning Israel. Of course, it’s not the Jews fault that they have so much affluence. Yet, claiming that any group can make his voice heard is extremely naive. It’s a logic reminiscent of the “American dream” and can be debunked fairly easily. But that’s clearly out of the scope here…[/quote]

Well, let’s take a look at their media, and the messages to children. For your viewing pleasure. Apparently this isn’t actually popular media, according to you.

Here’s some more coverage and discussion about their media, and the message they spread.

[quote]lixy wrote:

As for the “grand conspiracy”, it certainly is the impression I’m getting as well, given the influence the Jewish lobby has on the US. [/quote]

Nuff said. Not suprising, anti-semitism is on the rise throughout Europe, yet again, and again, and again.

The history of Radical Islam and Hitler. Note very similar propoganda. Need a scape-goat? Jews!

[quote]Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:

As for the “grand conspiracy”, it certainly is the impression I’m getting as well, given the influence the Jewish lobby has on the US.

Nuff said. Not suprising, anti-semitism is on the rise throughout Europe, yet again, and again, and again.[/quote]

Not really, anti-semitism is taboo…

Perhaps anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe because they get media coverage that is not filtered by Israel, like the media in the U.S.:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696

I think anti-zionism is on the rise, not anti-semitism. The Jewish people in Israel are not disliked for their religion, they are disliked because of their radical militant force to obtain their holy land at any cost.

Israel has a violent illegal oocupation of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, yet that is often left out of the news we see.

If I were a Palestinian and Israel held a military occupation in my cities & neighborhood, and forced their will on me, I would hate those people also.

I do not dislike Jewish people, but Israel’s illegal occupation is wrong, and what they did to Afghanistan recently was wrong.