T Nation

These Cops Are Crazy

I’m a student at UCI and I was at UCLA with some friends when this happened. The gist is basically this: The kid was working at a computer past 11 at the library, and staff is required to do random ID checks after 11 to make sure it’s only students at the library.

When they asked him for his ID, he took offense at it and accused them of racial profiling (he’s iranian-american and his name is Mostafa Tabatabainejad). The staff then left to call UCPD, while the kid stood up to leave. On his way to the exit he was stopped by UCPD, which is where the video starts (after the cops grab his arm to escort him out).

[quote]NDM wrote:
On another note, there seems to be a lot of cop haters on these boards. Stop hatin’.
[/quote]

My father was a police officer. I have a lot of respect for most officers, and I would never advocate using violence against them or obstructing them unless I were completely sure that the officer was in the wrong, and they were using potentially lethal force against someone who did not deserve it.

I think that our forefathers would be appalled to know that we have such a hands-off sentiment, as though officers of the law were above it, and as though courts could restore lives.

[quote]NDM wrote:
Do campus police carry firearms in the USA? I would imagine they do. These “cops” tasered a guy for not getting up…What do you think they would have done to a bunch of people trying to “incapacitate” them?
[/quote]

Also… my statement was made with full understanding that I might not live through the experience.

[quote]Shaved wrote:
doogie wrote:
Shaved wrote:
Three cops and one skinny student… what ever happend to just carrying him out?

What happened to following the rules? He was required to show ID to be in the library at night. The rule is in place for the safety of the students. He refused. He was a smart ass and tried to cause a disturbance. He got lit up. Good.

It’s not the cops duty to punish people, it is their duty to arrest you. A cop SHOULD use as little force that is required, but of course using a tazer gun is more fun.

If the cops are so concerend about the safety of the students then why did they… light up a student? Was he hurting someone by lying on the ground?

There was no reason to use the ammount of force that they used. It was an obvious abuse of power.

[/quote]

Obviously coming from a guy who has never wrestled with someone while you have a gun on your hip. The alternative to the taser would be to go hands on. That could result in him getting hurt worse. Not to mention the officers.

[quote]JD430 wrote:
Shaved wrote:
Three cops and one skinny student… what ever happend to just carrying him out?

Hey police tactics expert,

It can be a lot more dangerous to wrestle with a suspect than employ a less lethal option. The risks are numerous …transmission of disease, injuries to both parties, and it just looks bad.

What ever happened to doing what the fuck you are told to do and just leaving the library because you didnt have the credentials to be there? The police dont have the option to just up and leave when somebody is trespassing.

[/quote]

+1. Good post.

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Shaved wrote:
Three cops and one skinny student… what ever happend to just carrying him out?

Hey police tactics expert,

It can be a lot more dangerous to wrestle with a suspect than employ a less lethal option. The risks are numerous …transmission of disease, injuries to both parties, and it just looks bad.

What ever happened to doing what the fuck you are told to do and just leaving the library because you didnt have the credentials to be there? The police dont have the option to just up and leave when somebody is trespassing.

The police have rules to obey as well. That was abuse of their power.

Even only being trained as Security for the Navy, I would have known more than these jack-offs.

Tasers are one level below lethal force. There are other levels below that they could have used safely, to resolve the situation.

They’re lucky the other students were a bunch of cowards and they didn’t have a riot on their hands. THAT would be much more dangerous for EVERYBODY.[/quote]

Actually, the level of force the taser falls into depends on the department. One level below lethal force encompasses quite a bit.

OC, baton, neck restraint, etc. I’ll take the taser over the OC + baton approach. You won’t be hurting for weeks that way. Also, the video doesn’t show everything that occurred.

[quote]Dweezil wrote:
JD430 wrote:

Hey police tactics expert,

It can be a lot more dangerous to wrestle with a suspect than employ a less lethal option. The risks are numerous …transmission of disease, injuries to both parties, and it just looks bad.

Hey, criminal defense attorney,

He was non-violent and said he would leave. As far as going from wrestling with a suspect to using a taser, if that is your chain of progression as far as force is considered then it’s clear you know less than shit about “police tactics.”[/quote]

Actually that is exactly the progression that it can fall into. I will admit that some people are quick to use the taser.

[quote]brand wrote:
Obviously coming from a guy who has never wrestled with someone while you have a gun on your hip. The alternative to the taser would be to go hands on. That could result in him getting hurt worse. Not to mention the officers. [/quote]

Do you people even fucking read what you write? The only chain of progression in dealing with a suspect is to ask for ID, taser him, shoot him or wrestle him? What fucking world are you people living in? There are alternative methods for submission, not to mention the fact that this guy was actually leaving non-violently.

He was never physically aggressive, and the only time he even said anything vaguely hostile is when he was already leaving and “campus police” grabbed him. I can’t believe these posts from self-styled police aficionados.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I still think the mob should’ve incapacitated the police and helped him.[/quote]

That was my initial reaction too. But three cops tazed a single college student, with his hands cuffed behind his back, for simply refusing to stand. Imagine what their overreaction to a mob would look like.

What’s the rationale behind tazing someone to make them stand up? Isn’t that a bit backwards? Don’t they generally taze someone to make them drop?

[quote]nephorm wrote:
NDM wrote:
On another note, there seems to be a lot of cop haters on these boards. Stop hatin’.

My father was a police officer. I have a lot of respect for most officers, and I would never advocate using violence against them or obstructing them unless I were completely sure that the officer was in the wrong, and they were using potentially lethal force against someone who did not deserve it.

I think that our forefathers would be appalled to know that we have such a hands-off sentiment, as though officers of the law were above it, and as though courts could restore lives.[/quote]

While my understanding of the forefathers political beleifs is fairly limited, (I just learned that Washington was a mason, and had 4 testicles) I would think that Jefferson would be appaled at the level of policing that we have now. I think he probably rolls over in his grave everytime someone gets popped for jaywalking.

And I think that Alexander Hamilton would be appalled that police don’t break down doors in the middle of the night and lead the accused away in shackles. (well, normally they don’t do it that way).

If It makes you feel any better, even though I am studying to be a police officer, I do beleive that if an officer is making an illegal arrest, it should be legal for the person being arrested to defend, including the use of lethal force, against being arrested.

In my opinion, the deprivation of liberty is equivalent to the deprivation of life. In truth, I would be happy if a person had to be proven guilty before they could be arrested to begin with, and that the courts were handled entirely by subpeano’s. Police officers are really given too much power, especially considering that a very big share of them are just high school graduates, and the bar to become a police officer is not terrribly high. They are government entities that are empowered to deprive others of liberty and if need be, life. And some police academies are as low as 12 weeks.

At college, one of the first things we are taught is loopholes to the constituion. The deputy director of a state agency, (and I wont say which one) presented at one of the investigations class. He told us that the statute read that the area within a persons wingspan could be searched incident to an arrest. And then, he proceeded to tell us that they used to just make the person walk into any area they wanted to search, till a judge stopped them. So, Then general attitude of the police is that civil liberties are to be taken away, and the constitution to be gotten around.

I know that the police in my hometown have arrested people before when they didn’t have probable cause to do so. I understand its a bit hypocritical that I don’t really like cops, but I want to be one.

[quote]brand wrote:
Obviously coming from a guy who has never wrestled with someone while you have a gun on your hip. The alternative to the taser would be to go hands on. That could result in him getting hurt worse. Not to mention the officers. [/quote]

He was cuffed, hands behind back, with an officer on each arm, and simply refusing to stand. They continued to taze.

He could have been carried out the same way officers remove “sit-in” protesters that refuse to move.

[quote]Michael570 wrote:
brand wrote:
Obviously coming from a guy who has never wrestled with someone while you have a gun on your hip. The alternative to the taser would be to go hands on. That could result in him getting hurt worse. Not to mention the officers.

He was cuffed, hands behind back, with an officer on each arm, and simply refusing to stand. They continued to taze.

He could have been carried out the same way officers remove “sit-in” protesters that refuse to move.[/quote]

Exactly

wow, I missed this story until now. Crazy shit. Ever since I left the US it seems police are using tazers far too much. Remember that Florida story with the 6-year old getting tazered? (the kid was six, right?).

If the actions were within police procedures, the proceedures need to be changed and the kid was right to cry abuse of power. If the police actions were not, they should be punished.

For what it’s worth, I was in a situation where I was trying to break up a fight, when the police approached I was putting an individual “to sleep” and the police officer came at me baton raised…I backed off damn quick and didn’t get in any trouble.

It’s easy to say on the 'net that someone would step in and stop the cops, but when you’ve got a weapon pointed at you it’s not so easy I think. That being said I don’t know what I would have done.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I will add that no one in my office (a coworker was playing the video) understood why I felt that a physical reaction from those involved was appropriate. They felt that it should be handled in the courts.

That’s an indicator of something being wrong in our country.[/quote]

It might also be an indicator of familiarity with police tactics. If you “storm” the officers and one manages to call for backup with whatever code they use for “officer in danger” or “officer down”, you’ll get a whole shitload of cops at the scene within minutes.

And those arriving cops won’t be calmly asking questions to try and evaluate the situation; they’ll do whatever is required to assist whichever cop is down.

The chances of your scenario ending with three cops restrained vs. turning into an all-out riot with skulls being cracked or shots being fired are rather slim.

If, by chance, the crowd does manage to overpower the cops, you also face the possibility that the cops themselves will get beaten or even killed. Mob violence is nothing if not over-the-top and hard to bring back under control.

[quote]brand wrote:
JD430 wrote:
Shaved wrote:
Three cops and one skinny student… what ever happend to just carrying him out?

Hey police tactics expert,

It can be a lot more dangerous to wrestle with a suspect than employ a less lethal option. The risks are numerous …transmission of disease, injuries to both parties, and it just looks bad.

What ever happened to doing what the fuck you are told to do and just leaving the library because you didnt have the credentials to be there? The police dont have the option to just up and leave when somebody is trespassing.

+1. Good post.
[/quote]

Not at all. The kid was leaving peacefully and they grabbed him anyway.

[quote]pookie wrote:
If, by chance, the crowd does manage to overpower the cops, you also face the possibility that the cops themselves will get beaten or even killed. Mob violence is nothing if not over-the-top and hard to bring back under control.
[/quote]

You’re absolutely right. That would be a shame.

[quote]BarneyFife wrote:
If It makes you feel any better, even though I am studying to be a police officer, I do beleive that if an officer is making an illegal arrest, it should be legal for the person being arrested to defend, including the use of lethal force, against being arrested.
[/quote]

Weird… I can’t support that at all. Police officers aren’t lawyers. You have to give them latitude to make arrests, otherwise they’d never be able to.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
BarneyFife wrote:
If It makes you feel any better, even though I am studying to be a police officer, I do beleive that if an officer is making an illegal arrest, it should be legal for the person being arrested to defend, including the use of lethal force, against being arrested.

Weird… I can’t support that at all. Police officers aren’t lawyers. You have to give them latitude to make arrests, otherwise they’d never be able to.[/quote]

What I am refering to is when officers take people to jail when they don’t have probably cause to do so, and they know it. A friend of mine (african American), was stopped by two bike police. He had a tailight out.

They told himto shut off then engine, and get out of the car. He complied, but his radio was still on. The next song on the radio was “fuck the police”. The officers beat him, and then had a car officer take him to jail. They dropped him off outside the jail, because they didn’t have any reason to put him in jail.

Cops often arrest people that have to be let out, because they didn’t have legal standing to arrest someone. I beleive that in instances where the cops are performing a wrongful arrest, and they know that they are, then those involved should be allowed to defend themselves.

As long as an officer is acting within his/her “Use of Force Paradigm” listed in their general orders, they are not doing anything illegal or abusing their powers (seems to be a catch phrase nowadays).

I heard them give verbal commands to an active resistor who refused to comply. Their options were to use stunning techniques, which appear to be much more gruesome than a taser or a baton as a control instrument (very painful).

My comment wasn’t directed at you nephorm. It was an observation that I’ve made after reading threads similar to this one.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
NDM wrote:
On another note, there seems to be a lot of cop haters on these boards. Stop hatin’.

My father was a police officer. I have a lot of respect for most officers, and I would never advocate using violence against them or obstructing them unless I were completely sure that the officer was in the wrong, and they were using potentially lethal force against someone who did not deserve it.

I think that our forefathers would be appalled to know that we have such a hands-off sentiment, as though officers of the law were above it, and as though courts could restore lives.[/quote]