Besides protein, what thermogenic supplements have you been getting good results with? HOT-ROX is a great product but I am looking for something better if there is such a product. I have not tried Arson or any of those products. I’d like to stay away from experimentation in this area so any advice anyone has would be much appreciated!
*If this topic is covered well in the forums somewhere that I can’t find, please point me there.
-Thanks All!
Thermogenics won’t do much if your diet isn’t in check. And even when it is, they won’t make a HUGE difference.
My best results were always with HOT-ROX… most thermos are nothing more than caffeine and a little yohimbine, Certainly not terrible stuff, but the best description I ever heard about a particularly popular fat burner was “it will help you get your ass off the couch and to the gym, but you still need to do the work”. Pretty much says it all.
S
The beasts that are Stu and Chimera have nailed it. You look awesome in your update pics Stu. Good luck with your upcoming contest!
Go with the HOT-ROX. Works great
I’ve noticed some appetite suppressant effect with ephedrine and caffeine. In terms of it literally burning more calories while I sit on my ass, the effect, if any, is too small to practically notice, but it’s been pretty well proven by science and crap.
Yohimbine is one of the few other fat burning ingredients that has any evidence to back it up.
(Don’t combine yohimbine and ephedrine at once)
I’ve tried a couple and HOT-ROX gave me by far the best results although I also was dieting the hardest on it as well. The mood upswing from HOT-ROX was what really surprised me. The first time I took it my friends thought I was high on something and had no idea why I was so giddy with happiness. I also dont feel like I’m going to die from caffeine overdose on HOT-ROX while the others I’ve taken make me shake if I’m sitting still.
[quote]EasyRhino wrote:
I’ve noticed some appetite suppressant effect with ephedrine and caffeine. In terms of it literally burning more calories while I sit on my ass, the effect, if any, is too small to practically notice, but it’s been pretty well proven by science and crap.
Yohimbine is one of the few other fat burning ingredients that has any evidence to back it up.
(Don’t combine yohimbine and ephedrine at once)[/quote]
Agreed, there’s proven research that shows the muscle sparing qualities of EC as well, so not having an appetite isn’t going to hurt too badly. I found a great paper about how two dieting groups lost the same amount of weight (one on EC and one on reduced calories), but the EC group lost more fat and spared more LBM. Google for it…I can’t post the link here.
I’ve noticed the appetite suppressing effects of caffeine as well. When I’m having a low cal/carb day, my girl knows I need frequent coffee breaks to keep myself propped up, and not cramping in hunger, if we actually have things to get done.
S
Some years back I lost about 50 lobs in 90 days. I used Proanthanols Bio Complex + Paase’Olean Starch Blockers tablets before each meal. Bot them from Lifeplus. I also ate a whole or half grapefrujit with them, before each meal. That aerobic stair climbing, weights and giant sets did it form me, along with a ski machine.
I am considering doing this again.
Any one try additional yohimbine or really jack up the dose of HOT-ROX above 4 pills a day?
@Stu I don’t know if you litterally mean cramping, but either way, if you’re dieting, you could probably use the following suggestion that I picked up from Bill Roberts. You could try adding 2 grams supplemental potassium to your diet… not pills (as they will give you a gut ache), but add 2 grams of salt substitute (which is potassium chloride) to a jug of water and sip that throughout the day. I got this suggestion from Bill Roberts and I’ve been doing it and feel great! I think it really is noticable as far as recovery, in that I have zero cramping that I usually get when I cut the calories. You can get potasium from the grovery store in the spice isle (it’s a salt substitute).
More info on the thread here (if your interested): Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness
Some years back I lost about 50 lobs in 90 days. I used Proanthanols Bio Complex + Paase’Olean Starch Blockers tablets before each meal. Bot them from Lifeplus. I also ate a whole or half grapefrujit with them, before each meal. That aerobic stair climbing, weights and giant sets did it form me, along with a ski machine.
I am considering doing this again.
^Shit. You must have busted your ass! 50 is 90 is crazy. I’m doing ~35 in 90 (well 85 actually which is 12 weeks) and it’s pretty killer! (done 26 lbs so far in 59 days) - strength and muscle are noticeably up too.
I’ve used HOT-ROX and Anaconda protocol for the majority of this transformation using a targeted keto diet. My scheme is too detailed to list out completely, but i’ll document it all in my log when I get the time… I’ve been slacking off on that log and need to get some new pics up as I’m coming along nicely since the last pics. Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness
All in all, I think it definitely comes down to intensity following a program like this:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Any one try additional yohimbine or really jack up the dose of HOT-ROX above 4 pills a day?
@Stu I don’t know if you litterally mean cramping, but either way, if you’re dieting, you could probably use the following suggestion that I picked up from Bill Roberts. You could try adding 2 grams supplemental potassium to your diet… not pills (as they will give you a gut ache), but add 2 grams of salt substitute (which is potassium chloride) to a jug of water and sip that throughout the day. I got this suggestion from Bill Roberts and I’ve been doing it and feel great! I think it really is noticable as far as recovery, in that I have zero cramping that I usually get when I cut the calories. You can get potasium from the grovery store in the spice isle (it’s a salt substitute).
More info on the thread here (if your interested): Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness
Interesting. I’ve never been one to play around with (or even use!) salt, what’s the basic rationale behind this approach? I do carry a jug o’ water with me throughout the day (spiked with Mag10, last year I used BCAAs), which helps a bit. I’ve also had moments where I’ve just thrown down a handful of Flameouts, hoping the fats will quell my stomach a bit. Obviously I’m not expecting miracles, going from eating over 4K cals a day to a contest diet, but the green veggies and I have become very close these last couple of months -lol.
S
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
…@Stu I don’t know if you litterally mean cramping, but either way, if you’re dieting, you could probably use the following suggestion that I picked up from Bill Roberts. You could try adding 2 grams supplemental potassium to your diet… not pills (as they will give you a gut ache), but add 2 grams of salt substitute (which is potassium chloride) to a jug of water and sip that throughout the day. I got this suggestion from Bill Roberts and I’ve been doing it and feel great! I think it really is noticable as far as recovery, in that I have zero cramping that I usually get when I cut the calories. You can get potasium from the grovery store in the spice isle (it’s a salt substitute).
More info on the thread here (if your interested): Forums - T Nation - The World's Trusted Community for Elite Fitness
[/quote]
Interesting. I’ve never been one to play around with (or even use!) salt, what’s the basic rationale behind this approach? I do carry a jug o’ water with me throughout the day (spiked with Mag10, last year I used BCAAs), which helps a bit. I’ve also had moments where I’ve just thrown down a handful of Flameouts, hoping the fats will quell my stomach a bit. Obviously I’m not expecting miracles, going from eating over 4K cals a day to a contest diet, but the green veggies and I have become very close these last couple of months -lol.
S
[/quote]
The basic rationale is to get the general potassium you’re losing from the decrease in calories. Although if your green vegs are significantly higher than usual you may not have to worry, but with the fact that you may have cut most of your fruit (think bananas, baked potatoes, and milk, etc - foods you typically cut out when dieting hard) plus with the add’l sweating and exercising you may well be in need of the additional potassium. Bill’s suggests that 2 grams can’t possibly hurt, and I tend to agree. It’s kind of like what a multivitamin or supplemental vitamin D does - it covers your bases, but it won’t hurt you if you keep things reasonable. If you don’t cover your K+ bases you will suffer some ill effects that IMO will hinder your recovery, sleep, etc. I almost always get (feet) cramps when I diet (without K+) though now when i take the K+ I don’t get them. (I think) The RDA for potassium is like 4,000-5,000 mg (although RDA is not the same as for optimal performance) and most people get about half of this, esp when dieting. Now consider that you’re cutting and you can really start to notice some ill effects. You can either get the Lite Salt (sodium chloride) or whatever it’s called or get a bulk Potassium supplemnt on the internet (just google it and I think a site called pure bulk shows up - they sell a few forms. I’m on my first kilo of potassium citrate and it’s pretty cheap and seems to work fine. It’s only 32% elemental K+ though so you have to take 6 grams of it to get ~2 grams of K+ – be sure to use a small scale though because the crystals are much more dense than creatine or protein poweder, so a 5 grams creatine scoop will yeild close to 22 grams of Potassium citrate or 7 grams of elemental K+ which is way too much. You need ~6 grams of potassium citrate to yeild 2 grams elemental K+.
Best,
BT
I think headaches or dizziness, as well as cramps, can also be signs of an electrolyte problem. Potassium, magnesium, sodium, calcium.
Stu, if you’re looking in the grocery store, something like morton’s “lite salt” is 50% sodium chloride and 50% potassium chloride. You can get 100% potassium chloride, but I haven’t tried it, haven’t heard good things about the taste.
Fascinating. I’m always amazed by how much information there really is beyond the whole ‘eat big, lift big’ approach (at least if you’re going to push it to that extent).
S
[quote]EasyRhino wrote:
I think headaches or dizziness, as well as cramps, can also be signs of an electrolyte problem. Potassium, magnesium, sodium, calcium.[/quote] You are certainly right. I’m not trying to push this as a cure all for cramps. What I am trying to show is that you should be cognizant of the amount of potassium you eat while on a diet, and usually it’s well below the level needed for optimal performance. Mg, Na, and Ca can also be out of whack, but you should also pay attention to how much of those minerals you ingest as well. Also it all must be taken in stride re: how much you sweat on a particular day and or if you are on any meds, especially for blood pressure, definitely check with your doctor before trying something like this.
True, but there are ones that have just potassium as well… as for flavor, the intensified liquid flavoring helps a lot, but perhaps consider adding a source of sodium to the mix anyway (but again make sure it’s in line with your daily needs). Mixed with straight water potassium (chloride) is terrible. Oh and like I said ( I think) sip this slowly throughout the day, don’t chug 2 grams in a short time.
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Any one try additional yohimbine or really jack up the dose of HOT-ROX above 4 pills a day?
[/quote]
Im curious about this as well if anyone has any info…
[quote]karlrichii wrote:
[quote]BulletproofTiger wrote:
Any one try additional yohimbine or really jack up the dose of HOT-ROX above 4 pills a day?
[/quote]
Im curious about this as well if anyone has any info…[/quote]
I would guess taking more than 4 HOT-ROX a day is a bad idea, due to the caffeine content but the additional yohimbine could be interesting…
Also, these are some numbers I’ve heard thrown around (not sure how accurate they are), regarding BMR increase with thermogenics:
ECA can boost your BMR by 3-4%, with a half life of ~4 hours.
Clen is supposed to be in the 9-10% range, with a half life of ~36 hours.
I’m not sure where T3 and DNP would fall, but those are some serious business…
So if ECA is kind of the “gold standard” of thermogenics, you have to figure OTC thermogenic supps are going to be less effective. That said, none of this matters unless your diet and training are spot on. Like others mentioned, the “get up and go” feeling is probably one of the best reasons to take a thermogenic, and the rest definitely can’t hurt.