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Therapeutic Deca + Test E PCT Help


#1

Some of you may have checked out the thread that I started recently concerning a treatment I'd like to try for an autoimmune disorder using Deca as the primary therapeutic compound. It was a lot of help for me, but I've since hit something of a roadblock (possibly from information overload) and was hoping a forum vet might be kind enough to help steer me in the right direction.

What I did was come up with a reasonable dosage for the Deca that I believe may be effective, and a testosterone replacement dosage to run alongside it for obvious reasons. Where I've run into difficulty is on how to approach the PCT.

The cycle I'll be doing amounts pretty much to the following (I'm 33, and this will be my first cycle):

Week 1-10: Deca ~350mg /wk
Week 1-12: Test E ~150mg /wk
Week 1-12: Clomid 12.5mg /day

...with Cabergoline on hand.

I considered trying the test taper, but I prefer to be fully recovered sooner, since I may be starting another Deca cycle at that time. Therefore, since I'm already running low-dose Clomid throughout the cycle, I figured a Clomid-only, SERM-style PCT might be in order, but I don't know when to stop / start the during-cycle Clomid, or when to start the post-cycle Clomid; and given the relatively low doses of Deca and Test E, I don't really know how to adjust my post-cycle Clomid doses either.

How low should the Deca, Test E, or (Deca + Test E) levels have fallen before I stop the Clomid I'm taking during the cycle, and how low should they get before I start the Clomid post-cycle? Or should I just keep taking the Clomid at 12.5 mg/d, and raise the dosage when total drug levels fall to ~10 mg/day or so?

Does anybody have any input for me? I prefer to keep things as simple as possible.


#2

People with autoimmune disorders often have very low hormone levels. You should have your levels checked, PCT might be difficult.


#3

I think I've heard that before about thyroid hormone, but never about sex hormones. In either case, I've had my thyroid and testosterone levels tested in the past, and they were all normal. In fact, I have the testosterone results in front of me:

Serum Testosterone: 762 ng/dL (241 - 827 range)
Free Testosterone: 16.9 pg/mL (9.3 - 26.5 range)

This is part of the reason why I chose a relatively high dose for the Test Enanthate. I prefer to stay on the high range, perhaps even pop above what my body is accustomed to to see if I don't experience any of the positive effects on mood or sex drive.


#4

Ok, well it's nice to hear juice is helping you. I'm not sure if you're asking for ideas about using with an autoimmune disorder. No one here knows about that, other than that you should talk to a doctor. As to the question you posted, just take nolva all the way through.

Best of luck, just be careful.


#5

Normal and simple PCT routines are in the PCT sticky. PCT should start 4weeks after stopping deca and 2 weeks after test-e.


#6

Quick question: why Clomid during the cycle? And here's site I find useful for calculating blood levels of various drugs: www.roidcalc.com


#7

Thanks for asking, man. My thought process behind the Clomid is the following:

  1. Deca does not aromatize, but has been shown to increase estrogen slightly via other (perhaps poorly understood) pathways. Bill Roberts says 12.5 to 25mg Clomid should be "plenty" for 400mg / week of Deca.

  2. I'm only taking replacement doses of testosterone that are not much higher (if at all) from my own natural production. So whatever estrogen results from the Enanthate should not amount to much more than what my body is already accustomed to.

  3. Clomid is a relatively easy drug to obtain, and would also be useful for PCT if I choose to go the SERM route (hence this thread).

I figure that if 12.5mg for 400mg/wk Deca is "plenty," then 12.5mg for 350mg/wk Deca should also be plenty, even considering whatever higher amount of estrogen I may have in my blood due to the "upper normal" range of testosterone I'm shooting for with the Enanthate. Do you think 25mg would be a safer bet?

I figure I can always up the Clomid if I notice estrogenic symptoms, since it has such a fast mechanism of action. And the cabergoline will be on hand in case I do begin to notice side-effects that aren't ameliorated by the Clomid. Frankly, I prefer to hold off on the cabergoline (and other "anti-prolactins") unless necessary, because of concerns that they might mitigate the therapeutic effect that I'm looking for with the Deca.

Can you see any major flaws in my logic? Certainly that's possible. However, contrary to previous posters' implications, I have read most of all the stickies, but since my needs (and cycle) are relatively unique, answers to my specific questions can't really be found there. Or if they are there through inference, then those are inferences that I must be incapable of making for whatever reason.

By the way, thanks for the site reference.


#8

Hey, razii. So I take this to mean that you feel the PCT dosage does not need to be altered considering the relatively low dose of test I'll be taking and the non-aromatizing nature of Deca?

I felt that since Clomid is generally used post-cycle to reduce elevated estrogen in order to help promote natural test production, that if estrogen is comparatively much lower (than, for instance, in the "moderate," standard-length steroid cycle outlined in the "Newbie Cycle Planning" thread), then it would follow that less Clomid might therefore be necessary post-cycle.

Also, I noticed that Arimidex is continued up to the last week before Clomid PCT begins in the aforementioned "moderate" sample cycle. I figured that means I should probably continue my low-dose Clomid up until I start the higher dose PCT, but since one is an aromatase inhibitor, and the other a SERM, I was concerned the actual reason for continuing the AI might be different than what my purposes are (such as tapering off for health reasons that I'm not aware of, etc.).


#9

So here's what I found after re-reading an article, also by Bill Roberts:

Questions pertaining to the above:

Does the first sentence imply that if Clomid was taken during the cycle at an amount adequate to prevent elevated levels of estrogen, that the PCT described is no longer necessary? Or simply that a different drug would then be called for? If the former, would it make sense to continue the lower-dose Clomid throughout what would be the typical PCT period?

Also, I see a lot of more up-to-date recommendations for Clomid PCT, such as 150mg per day for 1 week, followed by 100mg for the next week, followed by 50 mg for the last week. Is the currently prevailing wisdom now in conflict with the 300mg front-load followed by 50mg daily regimen described by Bill?


#10

Honestly, having never used Clomid I cannot comment on the dosage. But your reasons for using it during cycle are clearly well thought out, and I can't fault the logic. And you seem to be taking the right precautions by having Caber on hand too.

I wish you the best of luck and I hope this works out for you.


#11

You should go with the usual pct routines. Your own T production is suppressed whether you use 150mg or 500mg for that time..


#12

Thanks, man. I appreciate you taking the time to read all this and weighing in on it.


#13

Hey, razii, can I pick your brain again? I'm just wondering if you believe that Clomid (or other SERMs) stimulate natural testosterone recovery by means other than simply lowering estrogen. I know there's some debate about whether or not this is true, and I'm inferring from your position that you probably feel that it is. Can you point me to somewhere that this is discussed in depth?

For now, I'm just going to pick up enough Clomid to last throughout the cycle and for the PCT, since I'll have 14 weeks+ to figure out precisely how I'm going to handle things post-cycle. But in the meantime, I might as well start investigating it now.

On another note, after 14 weeks suppressed, do you feel that HCG might be in order?


#14

HCG is always nice, it wont hurt you. So yes.

I dont really know about the clomid thing but like you say I've seen some debate about it too.

Im trying test taper after my current cycle, have you thought about that?


#15

Just read this thread today as the title was really interesting. Any title that includes steroids and the word "therapeutic" is music to my ears.

I'm wondering why an anti-aromatase agent wasn't part of your protocol? If estrogen from exogeneous testosterone use is a concern, why treat with clomid? When one takes clomid, aromatization is still occuring, which means though some receptors are blocked by the clomid, you still have free flowing estrogen floating around that isn't a good physiological situation.

I've always liked combining a SERM with an anti-aromatase agent if I was even thinking of using a SERM. It has been a really really long time since I've used anything anabolic, but usage of hormones and their ancilliaries for therapeutic reasons will always be a fascinating subject for me.


#16

Well, in many cases what happens is someone comes up with an idea and has a perfectly good result, and there's nothing done to actually compare whether the new thing is better or not or was done optimally or not. And it is nice round numbers then very often it will become popular, but the popularity doesn't really show that it works better, unless you have people that have done both and have seen that.

If anyone has done the 300 mg day 1, 50 mg/day thereafter and also done the above and found it better, I don't know of it.

The above protocol will overshoot the blood levels associated with ongoing 50 mg/day use, and that level is high enough. Will it harm anyone? No, but it does overshoot.

PCT use is necessary post cycle even if Clomid was used during the cycle, but the frontload will be different or absence. For example, if using Clomid at 50 mg/day during the cycle for gyno protection, then there is no need to have a frontloading day at all when starting the PCT.
Or if for example Clomid were used at 25 mg/day throughout the cycle, then only a half-frontload would be needed: one day at 150 mg.

On a point mentioned earlier in the thread: Way back (before starting work for Biotest, which was 10 years ago) I did have the mistaken idea that the aromatase enzyme couldn't work with nandrolone because of the lack of the 19-methyl, which is involved in the normal mechanism of that enzyme's operation. However, that was wrong. It is less prone to aromatization than testosterone but not immune.


#17

Hey, Samurai.

It's interesting that you would point that out. As it turns out, I did end up going with Arimidex throughout the cycle and a combination of Nolva and Clomid for PCT. Thinking back, I believe my decision to use Clomid was based on the fact that it was the one drug I was certain I'd be able to get my hands on. Once I saw that I had access to others, I tweaked my plan in the manner (and for the reasons) you described. (edit: Incidentally, in looking over this thread again, I realize that I was also basing my decision on my belief [at the time] that Deca doesn't aromatize, and I'd be taking a replacement dose of Test E. So, essentially, I expected no to very little increase in estrogen from the Deca [so no need for Arimidex], and all the aromatization from the maintenance dose of Test E I actually wanted.)

FYI, I do plan on writing a new post soon detailing the protocol I used, my rationale behind it, the results, and possibly uploading my Excel sheet for anyone who might be interested. I spent a lot of time on it, and I think others may find it useful.


#18

Hey, Bill.

Thanks for chiming in. I did glean from your writings that there is some conversion, but you felt it might be through mechanisms other than via the aromatase enzyme. Regardless, the important point for me was that estrogen would be elevated by the nandrolone, and given that I was taking HCG and Test E concurrently, I was able to "account" for that with my Arimidex dose, figuring that I had room to work with there (ie assuming the arimidex didn't block the nandro-induced estrogen increase, blocking more of the test-induced increase than "normal" to account for that would suffice).

Not sure if that's clear. But, essentially, what I ended up doing was:

300mg Deca E4D
85mg Test E E4D
200UI HCG E2D
0.25mg Arimidex ED

My thought process was essentially: that much Deca will suppress all my natural test anyway, the HCG should at least maintain my endogenous test levels, the Test E was taken in an abundance of caution, with the Arimidex dose being what I calculated as enough to tackle the aromatization of the Test E, plus some extra to account for the Deca-induced estrogen increase (presumably by aromatizing the "endogenous" test resulting from the HCG).

As I mentioned above, I will ultimately post a new thread with this information plus all the rest for posterity, and whoever may be interested.