Theory

Vain,

Although it isn't exactly what you had in mind, I'm doing a modified restricted carb approach in a one week on / one week off type program, which I explained on a much earlier post that's now out of view.

During my "low carb" week I keep carbs at about 150g per day. That week I train on a M, W, F in a 5x5 format. I do not do any additional work after the 5 sets of 5. Mondays and Fridays I do incline bench press and heavy squats. Wednesday I do heavy shrugs and pull-ups.

On my high carb week (or, if you prefer, my more "balanced" diet week) I increase my calories by about 1500 per day and do hypertrophy training on a M, W, F schedule. I will also take 4-AD at this time.

The "Big Thing" that's unique in this method is that during my hypertrophy week I don't do the staple exercises that I do during the 5x5 week. In other words, no squats, no incline press, no shrugs and no pull-ups. I save those bad boys for when I go super heavy.

My thinking is that:

A. I can work on increasing strength AND size virtually at the same time.

B. By cutting down carbs during the 5x5 week I can spare the muscle I gained during the previous week and shed any extra fat in the process.

C. The body will have no time to "adapt"; it will be constantly getting hit with new stimuli, both in the form of training and diet.

D. It SHOULD prevent me from plateauing either from a strength point of view or from a size point of view.

This is all hypothetical, of course, but I'm hoping I'm on to something pretty cool in terms of a routine. Of course, I look forward to anyone's response in this regard.

Count me in!!!

Whats the big discussion about? Aren’t you guys just describing the Bulking phase of the Metabolic diet?

Magnus: Phat0–we will work out the details of this as we go…what do you think?
let me know and I will begin writing up the plan

Mike:
I agree completely on not allowing adaptation from the bodies perspective. In regards to this, I myself am kinda doing what you have been doing and have noticed very nice results. After doing a strict keto for 33 days,and then some, i have come out of that and done a modified high/low carb days (with teh majority around 200 or so) while training 5x5 at a much lower volume than I had been during keto (one area I needed to tweak was my training periodization, and this came at a good time as current job switching and relocation has cut down the time i can spend in the gym right now). I do notice subtle variations in body “hardness” depending on the days of high vs. low carbs, and usually the changes are the second day after the change in carbs (almost like it takes a day for the body to recognize what is playing out). However, It obviously is the caloric “clean” balance that determines our gains and cuts, and as such, since my calorice balance overall has been on the slight negative side (about -400mntch per day), i call this my “etch” phase as I am currently at about 5.5% body fat. I alternate cardio (usually at least ellipitical every day) and find that it, plus ALA is a major factor in clearing glucose from the bloodestream.

anyway, interested to hear what you think about this
Peace
Vain

Choo Chew
Very perceptive of you…yes indeed we are talking about the lean gain “anabolic diet”, but I might suggest that few people have tried to use the “lean gain” method of keto dieting…most only use it for cut. In addition, what I am proposing is somewhat modified in that, its more an extended “maintain” plan with periodic feeds of carbs (all Low GI & II) rather than a CKD with specific workouts. Hell, I might even go so far as to say that carbing up may only need to be done very sporadically (rather than weekly) once the body has adapted to using fat as fuel.
But you do make a good point per se, I am not saying this is new, but I am saying lets giddy up and try this bad boy.
Later
Vain

Magnus, the reason that you gain too much fat when bulking is hte same reason everyone does, the way you react to overfeeding is primarily determined by genetics.

And in relation to low carb diets and weight gain, it will all be determined by genetics. The body is well and truely capable of getting fat without insulin, insulin does increase uptake of fats, but not as much as fats by themselves. Research Acylation stimulating protein amongst other factors (fatty acid transfer protien/fatty acid binding protein etc)
How you react to overfeeding is going to be similar how you react to low carb on a hypocaloric diet, if they work well for that it will possibly work well for hypercaloric.

I would be interested in the outcome of your experiments vain, so make sure you post. As for the diuresis that ketones causes not effecting the muscles I am not to sure as I would think that loses that occur in extracellular fluids or plasma will change the gradients and affect the intracellular fluids through diffusion (this occurs through sweating so maybe it occurs in diuresis). If you wanted to keep muscle glycogen levels full during times when you are performing eccentrics your carbohydrate ingestion would have to be higher as eccentric trauma leads to reduced glycogen synthesis.

British et al.,
Definitely will post up on this when i engage it. I think most people would not actually do this type of a modified gain diet, as the psychological ramification of eating fat instead of carboyhydrates (for the most part) would wreak havoc on most, and as such, they probably would not follow it correctly. Second, everybody binges differently, so to control for binges and deviations from the plan would be hard. For example, if you are religously following this diet, but then binge on rice cakes or ho-ho’s, this could be a major problem in the presence of both ketones and free FFA’s…so all can see where such a diet, would have to be VERY VERY controlled.
Comments?
Vainer

First of all I’d like to say great thread, guys!

I would like to share my last two months low carb experience while on maintenance calories 2600. Although they're "not" keto numbers, they still bear some significance.

Previously I had been on a 40% pro - 30% fat - 30% carb macro.
Two months ago I switched to a 42.5 % fat - 38.5 % - pro 20% carb.
Kept the calories the same, about 2600.
Kept workout intensity and frequency constant.
The only thing I did differently was to up my BCAA's from 15 to 30 grams a day.

Results: Lost 7 lbs and dropped over ONE full inch from my waist.

Question: If I had upped my caloric intake by 20% and consumed the same macros (42.5 % fat - 38.5 % - pro 20% carb), would I have gained muscle while remaining at the same BF%? Another thought: If I had raised my caloric intake by 10% while eating the same macros - could I have actually gained muscle while losing fat...? 0nly one way to find out!

It would be very unlikely to ever have raised levels of both ketones and FFA if binging on rice cakes or ho hos, unless you are a insulin dependant diabetic. Insulin will cause rapid uptake of ketones.

In my experience, gains in both LBM and strength can be achieved using either a strict keto or CKD provided that the diet is slightly hypocaloric. IMO, genetics and the training program itself are what determines the outcome in terms of LBM and strength increases. The classic line from the movie Jurassic Park was “nature will find a way”. In this case, if you are subjecting your body to progressive overload without overtaxing the nervous system, eating sufficient protein and getting enough sleep, your body will find a way of incorporating more amino acids into your muscles and intensifing nervous system activation in order to adapt to the training stress. I train using a hybrid system that incorporates concepts from both WSB and Pavel’s “bear” routine - as an example, in a recent “bulking” cycle, I ate 500 - 1000 calories above maintainence on training days ( I work out in the early a.m. before eating ) and maintainence calories on non-training days. The cycle ran for 6 weeks, and I added several pounds of LBM and increased my “Dimmel Deadlift” ( deadlifts done standing on blocks, in this case 4 inch ) from 330lb x 5 to 374lb x 5. The cycle was done with no anabolics and no carbs, and I actually lost some bodyfat as well. I didn’t really bother to ponder the wonders of insulin, receptor cites, etc, I just worked out a training program that focussed on strengthening my weak spots, shifted a shit load of poundage, ate a shit load of protein and fat (btw, I don’t use MCT’s as they give me bad gastric upset) and slept like a baby.
In my experience, “keto bulking” is not only possible, but highly preferable. I’m not saying that this approach will work for everyone, I think that ectomorphs in particular can probably benefit from a higher carb intake, but if you have the genetics and the dicipline to do without the carbs, you’ll do fine if you can get your training dialled in.

Ben, congratulations on your impressive gains. Did you ever carb load or include carbs post-w/o on that cycle?

I ate carbs once at a family barbeque, just to keep my grandmother happy, and in the last week of the cycle I had some pizza. I eat strictly protein and good fats - don’t eat butter etc- the only carbs I eat frequently are fiberous ones. Once a month, however, a few of my workmates and I go to Pizza Hut and indulge in one of their “all you can eat” deals. My best (or worst) effort so far is 26 (not a misprint) slices of PANFried (the thin slices don’t count in our binge contests)in one hour. I go for a record every time. And yes, I feel like shit for days after!

All
In pouring over my bb data, I question really, truly how much carbs play a major role in gaining, esp. high GI ones. More specifically, I doubt that insulin is a player as much as we think. Keep in mind that insulin is anti-catabolic for the most part…the thing is, insulin is always present, why even get the high GI or II ones in any way. I have yet to lose muscle restricting carbs on a diet (its more correlated with bf% i would say) and even during a bulk, say post-workout, why not just a simple whey shake, with honey…honey actually has a lower II believe it or not…getting the insulin up post-workout is a little over rated I think…On a bulk, simple Low GI and II carbs may play well, with say 150g carbs, 280 protein and the rest from good fats. Some like natural peanut butter, oils (good omegas) and the like. Carb’s are real tricky…REAL tricky…even on a CKD, I notice that the best carbs to carb-up on are LOW GI ones bar none…you refill muscle glycogen either way, and it seems that you get less spillover with low GI ones…
Bottom line
For the most part, and with few exceptions, I really question whether HIGH gi and II carbs are necessary at all.

May help you stay leaner longer and get bigger without getting softer as quick.

Thoughts?
Vain

Vain, IMO, you are on the right track in questioning the true value of carbs in general, and high GI carbs in particular. Personally,while I agree that fibrous carbs and a certain small amount of fruit are probably essential for maintaining good long term health, I believe that vertually all other carb sources are basically unnecessary and over the long term, harmful. Look at cultures who don’t eat simple sugars or much in the way of natural starches and you’ll find an absence of diabetes, very low incidence of heart disease & tooth decay, generally long life spans etc. The archeological evidence is now suggesting that life spans DECREASED in cultures that began consuming high amounts of carb. Recent science is now pointing the finger at high carb consumption’s role in increasing instances of childhood myopia. I could go on but instead ask yourself one simple question - Are sugars and starches( specifically grains) part of the natural human diet? Every other animal in their natural habitat obeys two laws of natural food consumption 1)the foodstuff must be non toxic to the animal, and 2)the foodstuff must be able to be eaten in it’s natural state. Have you ever seen an ape, or any other animal for that matter, find some grain, pulverize it, mash it, roll it out flat and cook it so that they are then able to digest it? Neither have I. Clued up humans, with their striped toothpaste, cell phones and laptops are the only animals on earth stupid enough to take something inedible and process it, & then claim it should make up the major part of their diet. For health and longevity reasons alone I renounce carbohydrates. Yes, insulin is vertually always present in small amounts, but in small amounts is how it was meant to be, since you don’t need much to deal with the carbs in fruits and veggies.
Enough of the health kick, let’s talk muscle. There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence around supporting the concept of non insulin dependant muscle growth. Many of the old time strong men built impressive physiques on meat and eggs.The original muscle guru, Vince Gironda, extolled the virtues of non and very low carb diets as a way of gaining mass and holding it while cutting.( Yeah, he also loved dessicated liver, but nobody’s perfect).
IMO, high carb consumption has resulted fistly from lazyness (why chase that mammoth when we can sit on our asses and wait till the women are done cookin that bread)and later, from more profitable food lines.It’s got nothing to do with precision nutrition. Just because the human body can make some use of these so called foods doesn’t mean that it NEEDS to.
I could be mistaken, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that amino acids don’t necessarily need insulin to enter muscle cells, that under the conditions of very low insulin they enter the muscle under a completely different mechanism. Although I don’t have the inclination at this point to go looking for the literature, perhaps you might.
In summing up, Vain, I applaude you and everyone else who has the guts to question the true value of carbs and insulin in regards to muscle growth.

and Ben what we are NOT saying in regards to our point is not that eating six hundred grams of protein a day is good either…I think some might miscontrue us, or those who advocated very low carb situations as saying this. I have come to the HUGE conclusion that I am very carb-sensitive…even on a load, just a few carbs over glycogen replenishment, and BAM, some hardness is gone, and I notice ever-so-slight deteriorations in my physique. There are plenty of good fats out there:
Natural (I mean natural) peanut butter
Coconut Oil (MCT and yes saturated fat CAN be good for you)–Look at those where MCT is used and consummed (Mediterrian’s–no obesity).
Flax and other oils
Salmon and other fish fats
Animal fats
In addition, I really question the role that some of these fats play in obesity and heart/coronary disease as well. I have a maternal side who are all big, some borderline obese…but my paternal side (i.e., my dad) is lean as hell and what does he eat??
Meat
Meat
and more meat…
and the only time he starts adding a little softness is when he starts eating the pastries and danishes and ice cream after dinner–but as soon as he cuts it out
BAM, the fat goes night night
In addition, your point regarding aminos into the muscle cell without insulin?–Keep in mind its always there, and ketons can act as a transporter.

Finally, I am not saying that fruits, some whole grains, and a few natural unprocessed carbs aren’t in the mix either…But, I might suggest a cap of 150g carbs or less per day, even on training days. Calories are adjusted with either protein or fat to cut or bulk
what are your thoughts
Later
Vain

Hello, T-Folk.

Some of you wanted to know about how my 1 week 5x5 / 1 week hypertrophy plan was working out. Here's the details from the first week and a half.

My 5x5 week was very successful. Despite pitifully low energy levels from so few carbs, I was able to squat 335 for 5x5, incline bench 205 for 5x5, and shrug 365 for 5x5. I did incline bench and squats on M,F and shrugs and pullups on W.

My low carb diet went M-Sat. On Sunday I kicked the carbs up a bit so my body wouldn't be in shock when I increased my kcals by 1500 on Monday. I started the week at 202 and finished at 198. There was VISIBLE fat loss in that short period of time.

I'm now halfway into my hypertrophy week, and my weight is already back at where I started (202). However, there doesn't seem to be fat gain associated with it. The waist has stayed the same. The pumps I'm getting are UNREAL.

And all this is being accomplished despite a NASTY chest cold that's taking its sweet old time going away. If I was 100% healthy, the results might have been even better. I'll post again after the 4-week cycle is complete.

Also, as a side thought, I have a great deal of respect for those of you who are able to keep carbs low for weeks at a time. I almost lost my cool and raided the bagel bin after only a few days, so I can truly appreciate how hard it must be do do it for longer periods of time.

Once again great thread. Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is “CKD?” I realize it’s some sort of carb cycling but just what exactly?

On another note, I’m finding keto works better for me when I keep the overall calories low. I don’t know why but when I eat over 2200 calories my metabolism speeds up too much and my blood sugar seems to drop too low. Thus, I lowered my fat intake in half. I’m also much less naseous then I was when I literally drank flax an olive oil. Anyone else experience this?
Cheese, butter and peanut butter seem to make me feel a whole lot better as well, but they’re predominantly sat fats, however I can eat greater quanities of them without feeling like sh*t. Someone mentioned MCT’s. How much of a 2000 calorie diet can be made up of them?

Wayne

Just like to clarify a few points - Like youself, I have come to the conclusion that I am wildly carb sensitive, and I do agree that my almost total renouncement of sugars and most starches IS, in the perception of most others, somewhat radical.Even small amounts of the most carefully chosen non veg carbs seem to have a negative impact on my physique, even after two or three weeks when one could reasonably expect my body to readapt to carb intake.
Secondly, I do eat quite a lot of saturated fat, as I habitually consume quite a lot of red meat, so I see no need to consume butter,and I strictly avoid margerine because of the hydrogenation factor.Plus, I just don’t like the taste.
Thirdly, the point about aminos entering muscle without insulin wasn’t MY point, I merely stated that I remember reading an article somewhere that alluded to this fact. I brought it up since this thread is discussing such things. As you may recall, I’m really not all that interested in the exact technical details, I prefere to limit myself wherever possible to the real world applications.
There are others, however, who are enthralled by the finer points - I was adding food for thought.
Lastly, I have tried adding small amounts of carbs such as maltodextrin to post workout whey drinks and it didn’t have any noticable effect on LBM or strenght gains, so I just go with the whey on its own.
Thanx for pointing out the points in my post that could be misunderstood, and I hope this clears them up. Live free.

Pardon my ignorance, but do you guys take BCAA’s as well? How would they play a part of the diet, and what are your recomended dosages? I was planning on upping my intake to around 35g a day, due to intense training.