T Nation

Theories on Deca Dick


#1

I've been pondering a lot over this for the past few days. What follows is the result of what I've found on the subject over time plus a couple of personal thoughts on the matter. I've not been able to find actual studies on the matter so most of this can be considered bro-science at it's best. Still, I find it an interesting intellectual exercise. I hope others can contribute, hopefully with some real knowledge, so that we can shed some light on the subject, or at the very least entertain ourselves for a while.

So, it is commonly accepted that using Nandrolone entails a greater risk of developing ED than most other steroids. This is somewhat strange since ED from AAS use is mostly attributed to either elevated or suppressed levels of oestrogen and Nandrolone does aromatise so that rules out suppressed oestrogen. Anti-aromatase drugs, while they help with Deca Dick, they don't entirely eliminate the risk. Further, Nandrolone aromatises to a lesser extent than say Testosterone. All This suggests that oestrogen is not entirely the cause of Deca Dick, or else it would be worse with Testosterone and other drugs.

Another common theory is that it raises prolactin but I fail to see how this could happen. The only argument I've found in favor of this hypothesis is that taking a Dopamine Agonist (such as Cabergoline) helps the situation but I argue that this is not enough to prove that Nandrolone raises prolactin and that the DA may be helping with the ED regardless of it's cause, much like Cialis will help idiopathic ED.

An interesting property of Nandrolone is that the 5-alpha reductase enzyme decreases the potency of the drug in other tissues other than muscle, contrary to what happens with Testosterone. Many believe this interaction could be the source of Deca induced ED, since DHT is important for libido. But this only explains why taking Deca alone would cause ED and many have reported suffering from it even when stacking it with Testosterone. The addition of Testosterone would, in theory, take care of the problem because it would allow for DHT to be produced. What is seen is that Testosterone has to be dosed considerably higher than Nandrolone to avoid the issue. There must be something else going on. My theory is that either the Nandrolone competes with Testosterone to bind with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme (perhaps irreversibly, which would explain the extended period of time it takes to recover from Nandrolone use), thus decreasing the effectiveness of Testosterone in yielding DHT or that the compound to which Nandrolone is reduced (don't know it's name) competes with DHT to bind with the AR, perhaps not activating it, thus reducing the effectiveness of DHT. The first option seems more plausible to me but this is just a personal appreciation.

Lastly, we have that Nandrolone might be a progestin (a synthetic progesterone-like molecule), since it does seem to have some degree of affinity with the Progesterone Receptor. Progestins have been studied to be used as contraceptives in men, suppressing LH, FSH and subsequently Testosterone and DHT. However, this affinity does not mean that the Progesterone Receptor is being activated so the affinity might be irrelevant.

PS: pardon any syntax or spelling errors (english is not my first language).


#2

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
My theory is that either the Nandrolone competes with Testosterone to bind with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme (perhaps irreversibly, which would explain the extended period of time it takes to recover from Nandrolone use).[/quote]

To me it seems like a bit of a stretch to explain that much time with a suicide inhibition mechanism. But Deca metabolites last a really long time. I was wondering if it would be possible that the metabolites have residual effects. I admit that I don’t know a thing about Deca metabolism so this is just speculation at its finest.


#3

[quote]Apoklyps wrote:

[quote]eaboadar wrote:
My theory is that either the Nandrolone competes with Testosterone to bind with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme (perhaps irreversibly, which would explain the extended period of time it takes to recover from Nandrolone use).[/quote]

To me it seems like a bit of a stretch to explain that much time with a suicide inhibition mechanism. But Deca metabolites last a really long time. I was wondering if it would be possible that the metabolites have residual effects. I admit that I don’t know a thing about Deca metabolism so this is just speculation at its finest.[/quote]

Good point about the metabolites. I didn’t know the had an extended half-life as well, or had not considered it.

Suicidal inhibition may be a stretch but there seems does to be something going on with the 5-AR enzyme. It appears to be somehow fragile and this is also seen in the long term (even indefinite) side effects that are sometimes seen when a 5-AR inhibitor is used.


#4

I have done blood work while on deca. Guess what, my prolactin was elevated. So did every other guy I know who has done a blood test while on deca. Every single one of them had eleated prolactin. Some of them suffered from ED, others did not.


#5

[quote]niksamaras wrote:
I have done blood work while on deca. Guess what, my prolactin was elevated. So did every other guy I know who has done a blood test while on deca. Every single one of them had eleated prolactin. Some of them suffered from ED, others did not. [/quote]

Now this is hard data. Would you mind posting the results and, if you have it, any other prolactin test you might have done when not taking Deca? Thanks man.


#6

I haven’t done bloodwork w/ my run of Deca, but I did suffer from ED for about 2 weeks after coming off of it. It started about 2 weeks after my last pin and then lasted about 2 weeks of softer, almost non-usable erections. My wife wasn’t thrilled but made fun of me at the same time. :confused:

I was running clomid for my PCT along w/ a few other things and everything came back to normal.


#7

It’s such a shame we don’t have more guys post their lab test results. Moreover, it’s not that common for people to test DHT. I think that could that could be a very interesting input.


#8

One of my buddies claims to still have deca Dick or at least erection problems even 3 years after his cycle. His total t is in the low 500s,. I told him to test his dht. He doesn’t have insurance and I think the test is pretty expensive for some reason on privatemd. Would this be a test to definitely get?


#9

I have all my bloodwork, and even paid $130 to test my DHT one time. I have blood work before, during and after my only N.P.P cycle I have ever done. I was using 750 mg Delytestryl per week throughout the whole cycle. Weeks 1-5 I used 60mg Tren Ace ED Mon-Sat and everything was fine besides my sleep. Switched to N.P.P week 6-10 and discontinued everything due to ED, blood pressure and side effects that kicked in hard about week 2 after starting N.P.P.

I did make more gains from the N.P.P after the tren and got my biggest, at a heavy price. I went down to a cruise of 100mg 2x week Pfizer cyp and it took quite a few months to get it all back to normal. Even cialas and viagara barely helped, it was scary. Never again.
Prolactin and progesterone were way high. So was DHT, CK, Test levels… everything else was acceptable.


#10

[quote]eatliftsleep wrote:
One of my buddies claims to still have deca Dick or at least erection problems even 3 years after his cycle. His total t is in the low 500s,. I told him to test his dht. He doesn’t have insurance and I think the test is pretty expensive for some reason on privatemd. Would this be a test to definitely get? [/quote]

I believe so. DHT seems to be the primary androgen in most tissues other than muscle. It is crucial for the development of primary and secondary male characteristics and is crucial for libido, presumably for the effects it has both on the brain and on the reproductive organs themselves. So when experiencing ED, I think it’s very important to look at DHT. That said, it is an expensive test, as you noted, so it may be more practical to rule out other hormonal imbalances first (high prolactin, oestrogen, etc.) first and if everything is ruled out, DHT could be looked at. I remember having read about people using topical DHT to help with ED quite successfully (on the internet, mind you).


#11

My deca dick saga…with current labs, all post cycle.

I’ve spent countless hours doing research, Mostly bro science.

Caber made no difference for me, that is fact.

I’ve read everything from its all in your head, to it causes nerve damage so your brain cant talk to your dick, to it fucks with neurotransmitters, to it decreases neurotransmitter receptors…

Look at my DHT number though. might be on to something here. Unfortunately, i dont have DHT numbers pre-cycle.

Progesterone numbers also interest me but i cannot find ideal levels in males. Since deca is a progesterone, can it be assumed that natural production would cease? It is possible that progesterone production is a bitch to restart?

Just tossing ideas out there.

pick your poison i guess.


#12

I’ve also noted that since ending the deca cycle, that my hands, feet, dick, nuts all feel cold most the time. I never noticed this before hand.

Could it be a circulation problem?


#13

Deca also affects cortisol levels and its spikes. This could wreak havoc with ones well being as well.

Personally i think all adding in testosterone does is mask the problems…


#14

[quote]Ned wrote:
Deca also affects cortisol levels and its spikes. This could wreak havoc with ones well being as well.

Personally i think all adding in testosterone does is mask the problems…[/quote]

Any studies to share that support the cortisol statement?


#15

[quote]JKriminal wrote:
I have all my bloodwork, and even paid $130 to test my DHT one time. I have blood work before, during and after my only N.P.P cycle I have ever done. I was using 750 mg Delytestryl per week throughout the whole cycle. Weeks 1-5 I used 60mg Tren Ace ED Mon-Sat and everything was fine besides my sleep. Switched to N.P.P week 6-10 and discontinued everything due to ED, blood pressure and side effects that kicked in hard about week 2 after starting N.P.P.

I did make more gains from the N.P.P after the tren and got my biggest, at a heavy price. I went down to a cruise of 100mg 2x week Pfizer cyp and it took quite a few months to get it all back to normal. Even cialas and viagara barely helped, it was scary. Never again.
Prolactin and progesterone were way high. So was DHT, CK, Test levels… everything else was acceptable. [/quote]

Im going on 4 months now, still have ED and emotional sides. just 5mg of cialis turns the wet noodle to a jack hammer though for about 2-3 days afterwards, doesnt take much for me.

Just to be clear, I experienced ZERO sides on cycle. They all came on about 2 weeks after i had dropped the NPP and went back to just 100mg test a week.

I’ve read about creatine increasing DHT also. This was a scholarly study so should be somewhat credible.

I wish i had DHT numbers prior to the NPP but i don’t.


#16

.

Not me.
800 mg weekly (nandrolone alone) 8 eight weeks.

prolactin normal.