T Nation

Theodicy

Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.

[quote]
captainlogic wrote:
slimjim wrote:
ZEB wrote:

You are assuming that he cannot be omnipotent and yet still give us free will.

Your assumptionis false!

If we did not have free will we would be nothing more than robotic slaves.

He can’t be both. If we have free will, he can’t stop us from doing things, he is not all powerful. On the other hand, if he is all powerful, we don’t have free will, and everything in the world is God’s will and we are just following his plan.

You didn’t really address Zeb’s point about how he could be all powerful, but choose not to exercise this power. If he doesn’t have control over his own power he’s not all-powerful either is he?

You could also think about the free will question like this: if God is omniscient, then he already knows the eternal fate of your soul when he creates it. So if God knows how you are going to exercise the free will that he gives you, is it really free will? [/quote]

Okay, he could choose not to exercise his power in order that we have free will, in this case he has given up some of his power so that we have free will. The moment that he intercedes and does something that violates this, we no longer have free will. The two do not go hand in hand.

[quote]
fahd wrote:
slimjim wrote:
fahd wrote:
This is a tricky topic, and I myself is still thinking on this one. But here is my humble opinion:

Joy and pain, day and night, love and hate, perfect and imperfect; these are all concepts which only exists when the opposite exists. In other words, you will not appreciate what life is without death, and you will not know what joy is without suffering.

Therefore, tragedies like these are necessary in a relative world. Only in an absolute world, e.g. heaven, will love be all there is.

On the other hand, if I were to take the Bible literally, I would argue that Man-Kind disturbed the natural order of the otherwise perfect universe through their sinning in the garden of Eve.

Going to a private Christian High school helps,

Fahd

Ah yes, the good old Eve argument, have you been reading “Confessions” and blaming those evil women again?

You are offically an idiot. Read the post before you post. [/quote]

I’m sorry, but the rest of your post was drivel about how you feel the world could be. light/dark, love/hate. All you did was rip off yin/yang, karma, brahman, the golden child, and big trouble in little china, my how intelligent.

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.
[/quote]

I’m game but at least make a couple of points to prove your not one.

[quote]slimjim wrote:
Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.
[/quote]

(eye roll) No one is an idiot.

God can still be in control and give us free will as that is his wish!

There is no contradiction there.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.

(eye roll) No one is an idiot.

God can still be in control and give us free will as that is his wish!

There is no contradiction there.[/quote]

Dammit Zeb, you are one of the few people who makes me shout at my computer. Yes God can be in control, but if we have free will, that means we can do whatever we want and God does not control us, meaning he does not control everything, meaning he is not all powerful.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.

(eye roll) No one is an idiot.

God can still be in control and give us free will as that is his wish!

There is no contradiction there.[/quote]

Free will on parole? When should God decide to intervene?

Oh, the can of worms you just opened…

Topic:

1)God is all-loving and ominpotent
2)Evil exists

therefore, either God:

  1. does not exist
  2. is impotent
  3. is not all loving

or

Evil does not exist

I believe in the freewill defense.

God chose to grant us freewill. For moral goodness will not exist without a possibility to commit evil. If he wishes, he can choose to create us so that we never commit a sin, but thats not his objective. He chose to create us so we can have a choice.

This is an example, a king may force a peasant girl into loving him, but instead chooses to win her heart.

You may question whether God is therefore all-loving when suffering exists. However, again, suffering is a product of other people abusing their freewill.

what we call suffering can also benefit us in a long term; if we look at the bigger picture, an event which we view as ‘evil’ may seem good after a number of years.

Fahd

[quote]slimjim wrote:

Okay, he could choose not to exercise his power in order that we have free will, in this case he has given up some of his power so that we have free will. The moment that he intercedes and does something that violates this, we no longer have free will. The two do not go hand in hand.[/quote]

No he hasn’t given up any power, he has only chosen not to exercise it.

And you just introduced a scenario (‘the moment he intercedes’) that doesn’t have to happen, ever.

[quote]fahd wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.

I’m game but at least make a couple of points to prove your not one.[/quote]

Here is one point, in the sentence above you should have used the conjunction “you’re,” as in “you are” rather than “your,” as in “your boat is so big.”

[quote]slimjim wrote:

Okay, he could choose not to exercise his power in order that we have free will, in this case he has given up some of his power so that we have free will. The moment that he intercedes and does something that violates this, we no longer have free will. The two do not go hand in hand.[/quote]

In order to be a just God, he will need to inform us of the choices and consequences to the people he gave free will to.

I would also add a different view:

Irenaeus (theologist) thought that the existence of evil actually serves a purpose.

From his point of view, evil provides the necessary problems through which we take part in what he calls “soul-making”.

From this point of view, evil is a means to an end, whih is spiritual development.

[quote]slimjim wrote:
ZEB wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Well we’re clogging up the whole issue about the chick that helped a dog molest that kid, so here it is. I’ll kick off with a rebuttal to Fahd’s assertion that I’m officially an idiot.

No, you are.

(eye roll) No one is an idiot.

God can still be in control and give us free will as that is his wish!

There is no contradiction there.

Dammit Zeb, you are one of the few people who makes me shout at my computer. Yes God can be in control, but if we have free will, that means we can do whatever we want and God does not control us, meaning he does not control everything, meaning he is not all powerful.[/quote]

Yes, but how does delegating power take away your own power? If the president delegate some power to a person, does it mean hes less powerful?

So, does that mean that if we sit back and let our children do whatever they want, even though we can interceed it makes us less of a parent and takes away our power?

God IS all powerful, and just becuase he has given us a plan which idealy will determine our happiness based upon our choices, does not mean that he has given away any of his power.

If you read the Bible, it states that “this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God,” so if this is the case then it must needs be that we have to be able to choose our paths without the intercession of His devine power…that would violate the plan…

Just as it would violate the growing and learning process of our children if we interceed on their behalf…

We all must choose and learn from our choices.

That wasn’t much of a debate was it slim?

What about option three: there is no “god” and you guys are like mental patients in the back ward?

This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.

If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?

[quote]harris447 wrote:
What about option three: there is no “god” and you guys are like mental patients in the back ward?[/quote]

I personally believe in a God (or any other term you call it) but I’m not religious; but more spiritual.

I think that there are many intelligent people are both side of the existence of God argument, so I would not call any of them mental patients.

Fahd

[quote]doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.

If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?[/quote]

Yes, otherwise he wouldn’t be omniscient.

[quote]doogie wrote:
This is one of those things you have to be a believer to accept the stupidity of it.

If I have free will, does God know what choice I’m going to make?[/quote]

Ok…so then if you are not a believer…then just for talk sake let’s say that God does exsist…then Yes he does know what you will do…however, he does not interceed based upon the earlier argument.

However…one can argue your point that the stupidity is he does not believe…true?