THEN You Can Talk

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Same here, in that I like you, but have to disagree to some extent. Living overseas, I run into all kinds of Europeans, and at least 1/3 of the time it’s not 5 mins. before they start insulting the US and American people.

Out of curiousity, what is it about “the US and American people” that they insult?

Last I checked, not only Europeans but people all around the globe were mad at the US foreign policy. But then again, so are a lot of Americans. I can’t see why you would consider criticism of your country’s foreign policy an insult to the American people when the accusations are founded. Let’s take the invasion of Iraq for instance; it destabilized the region and increased the threat of terrorism.

Look at Bush’s approval rates. Look at those of Congress. Why do you think they are so low? Is it because the latter failed to deliver what they promised? Is it because everyone realized bombing and invading Iraq was unnecessary?[/quote]

Your approval ratings on here suck, you stay the course. How are you any different? This isn’t really a thread about the Iraq war, but way to pop in like a typical douchebag and further your agenda. Might want to change up your mantra a little bit, your starting to not only become boring but quite passe as well.

At least stick to the relevant threads for your bullshit. I could read a thread about donuts and you’d pop in and mention something about the Iraq war. Shut up already.

22

[quote]btm62 wrote:
Your approval ratings on here suck, you stay the course. How are you any different? [/quote]

The differences are obvious. I’m going to assume your question isn’t serious.

The thread is about Europeans considering themselves morally superior and believing that the US is the most dangerous country on the planet. The war on Iraq is directly related to the perception the rest of the world has of your country.

A country that exports beer and chocolate is bound to trigger nice sentiments. Countries with a worldwide military presence that are hell-bent on world domination don’t have the best rep’. If many people see the US as a threat, it is precisely because of the Iraq blunder. People - around the world - were mad at your president even before the war started.

When innocents got blown up by American bombs, they got even more pissed. When the country turned into a terrorist breeding ground, and abberations such as Abu Ghraib got revealed, it was the last straw.

So yeah, the current negative feeling most Europeans have towards US’s foreign policy stem from your invasion of Iraq. You’re free to disregard facts and entertain the idea that “they’re just jealous”. But, for heaven’s sake, don’t pretend that Iraq has nothing to do with the image Europeans have of your country. American agencies acknowledge that much.

I hear there are open positions at The Factor. I’m sure you’ll feel right at home.

23

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
…

And Zap? However we might like to think otherwise, it was General Winter, fighting for the Russians, that broke the back of the Wehrmacht.

Without US involvement it would have either been a Soviet Nazi stalemate or a Soviet dominated Europe.[/quote]

A stalemate? I don’t think so, not after Kursk and Stalingrad. The Germans got their asses handed to them in little pieces.

Yeah, I agree that that was an exaggeration, but the German Army we faced in 1943 was a hell of a different animal than the one the French, Russians and British had had to fight up until then.

We stepped into the fight at about the middle of the sixth round. And by the time we actually went toe-to-toe with our opponent, he was already reeling a bit. To claim full credit for knocking him out is a little disingenuous.

24

[quote]Chushin wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Many Europeans feel morally superior to us, ‘Bush is evil.’, America is the most dangerous country on the planet to them and so forth.

However, until you do something like this for the United States of America, guess what we say to you.

Do something like this, then you can talk.

HH, I like you, but I disagree with you. I do not think Europeans think they are better than us. I’ve spent a fair amount of time and found most people very pleasant and very open. I know we have some ass hats on the forum, but I don’t think they represent Europe at large. More than half my family is European, they don’t have any problems with Americans, most of the ones I met don’t. Honestly, I’d say most Europeans are cool.

As far as America helping Europe, of course. And we’ll do it again and again. Truth be told, if they had means they probably help us too.

Hey Pat,

Same here, in that I like you, but have to disagree to some extent. Living overseas, I run into all kinds of Europeans, and at least 1/3 of the time it’s not 5 mins. before they start insulting the US and American people.

Obviously, that leaves the other 2/3. Fair enough. But HH’s point is not without merit.[/quote]

You are right, there is that element. My father recently spent 3 years in Spain, and he ran into assholes like that and would debate them. It usually stemmed from a fundamental misunderstanding of the U.S. and what we are up against Of course many of those people were also dumb enough to believe the promises of those who mean to kill them and us.

Anyhow, I have seen what HH is talking about, but I think, for the most part Europeans are our friends and allies.

25

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

However, until you do something like this for the United States of America, guess what we say to you.

You mean something like what the Marquis de Lafayette did?

Precisely.

But I agree with Pat on this. I have family over there and most of em’ don’t really dislike the US at all. Plenty of em hate Bush, but most of the Europeans I know think our liberals are pretty conservative, so our conservatives to them appear to be nut jobs.

As well, plenty of nations LOVE American tourists, because they know we’ll buy a lot of meaningless crap because we have the wealth to do so :D[/quote]

Hell, I hate Bush, even HH hates Bush, or a least has a significant dislike for him.

26

All right, who left the barn door open again? The sheeple have escaped the pen!

[quote]lixy wrote:
Chushin wrote:
Same here, in that I like you, but have to disagree to some extent. Living overseas, I run into all kinds of Europeans, and at least 1/3 of the time it’s not 5 mins. before they start insulting the US and American people.

Out of curiousity, what is it about “the US and American people” that they insult?

Last I checked, not only Europeans but people all around the globe were mad at the US foreign policy. But then again, so are a lot of Americans.
[/quote]
Iraq yes, foreign policy en masse not so much. The U.S. does manage to do a lot of good of the too. For instance, what has the Moroccans or the swedes done for the Bangladesh done for the victims of the Bangladesh Typhoon? We’ve sent aid and our military, yes our military, for humanitarian assistance.

When has the region been stable? 2000 B.C.?

27

[quote]lixy wrote:

When innocents got blown up by American bombs, they got even more pissed. When the country turned into a terrorist breeding ground, and abberations such as Abu Ghraib got revealed, it was the last straw.

So yeah, the current negative feeling most Europeans have towards US’s foreign policy stem from your invasion of Iraq. You’re free to disregard facts and entertain the idea that “they’re just jealous”. But, for heaven’s sake, don’t pretend that Iraq has nothing to do with the image Europeans have of your country. American agencies acknowledge that much.

[/quote]

Let us get one thing perfectly clear, so there is no mistaking. While innocents have died because of American action in Iraq (which is tragic, make no mistake) the vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq have been at the hands of islamic militants and radicals. Not only that, but these said “freedom fighters” targeted civilians, yet, I have never heard you condemn their actions.

28

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Iraq yes, foreign policy en masse not so much. [/quote]

Do you think people are content with what you did in Haiti? Check again.

Nobody ever challenged that. Quite the strawman here.

That you do some good does not excuse the bad.

Holy cow!

Moroccans sent money to help with the relief. Sweden has been aiding the country non-stop since 1971.

Just as a reminder, after Katrina struck the US, Bangladesh offered technical assistance to (they’re quite used to such disasters) and a million dollars in cash (remember, that’s a piss-poor country!).

Now, THAT is good.

Yet, people don’t respond positively when they see your troops.

Iraq sure as hell wasn’t the terrorist breeding ground it is today.

29

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Let us get one thing perfectly clear, so there is no mistaking. While innocents have died because of American action in Iraq (which is tragic, make no mistake) the vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq have been at the hands of islamic militants and radicals. [/quote]

The same kooks who wouldn’t be in there in the first place if it wasn’t for your presence. Do you have any idea about the number of Saudis who crossed the border to “free their Muslim brothers”?

The grassroots Iraqi resistance don’t target civilians. Al-Qaeda style foreigners do.

30

[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Let us get one thing perfectly clear, so there is no mistaking. While innocents have died because of American action in Iraq (which is tragic, make no mistake) the vast majority of civilian deaths in Iraq have been at the hands of islamic militants and radicals.

The same kooks who wouldn’t be in there in the first place if it wasn’t for your presence. Do you have any idea about the number of Saudis who crossed the border to “free their Muslim brothers”?
[/quote]
True, but they are still islamic radicals and they are looking for the opportunity to do something, somewhere. These people want to kill and they don’t care if your muslim or not. Yet the people claim the violence for islam, claim to be spokesmen for true islam, and the greater doesn’t say shit or do shit; some people do, but very few by comparison.

Many times, they defend them and you’ve defended them. What you fail to realize is that they would hate us no matter what and the bottom line is that islam is in trouble and only a fool wouldn’t recognize it. Do you really think things can continue the way they are right now in islam? No way! It iw ll cahnge or it will fall.

31

[quote]pat36 wrote:
True, but they are still islamic radicals and they are looking for the opportunity to do something, somewhere. [/quote]

Well, you sure handed it to them on a silver tray…

Not at all. I can agree with you on that point. Radicals would hate you no matter what. In fact, they would hate everybody that don’t ascribe to their twisted ideology. Hence the term radical. Allow me to add that some of your country’s actions keep that hatred alive, if not intensify it.

As for Islam being in trouble, I totally agree. Its golden age is many many centuries back, and it’s getting horrible PR thanks to the relentless efforts of the Wahabis and similar groups.

Now for the question: Why do you bring this up? Is it OK to go around bombing and invading countries because “they would hate us no matter what”? I don’t see how your statement relates to the thread.

32

[quote]Ken Kaniff wrote:
Do what, not joining the war until the nazis had already lost it?[/quote]

I suppose the Japs were losing too, huh?

33

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
heartwarmingly precocious child “mascot” tagging along with the Ranger squad.[/quote]

There was. (They had a scene with a child. Didn’t they rescue one?)

So did Schindler’s list, (A kid running through a concentration camp, unseen by anyone. Yeah, highly probable.)

ET, and practically every other Spielberg movie.

Which is why I can’t stand his movies.

If Lucas directed it, the tanks, boats and Nazi’s would have been CGI, it would look like a video game, and Tom Hanks would be reading his lines from off screen cue cards like Anakin was doing.

34

[quote]lixy wrote:
I can’t see why you would consider criticism of your country’s foreign policy an insult to the American people when the accusations are founded. [/quote]

For the same reason you consider the criticism of Muslim Extremists to be insults to Muslims in general.

35

[quote]lixy wrote:
Countries with a worldwide military presence that are hell-bent on world domination don’t have the best rep’.[/quote]

Damn straight, China sucks.

36

[quote]lixy wrote:
Iraq sure as hell wasn’t the terrorist breeding ground it is today.[/quote]

It was run by a mad man who butchered his people.

37

[quote]lixy wrote:
The grassroots Iraqi resistance don’t target civilians. Al-Qaeda style foreigners do.[/quote]

The grass roots Iraqi resistance are now targeting Al-Qaeda.

You may be right, but most of these “grass root” resistance members are probably ex-Baathists. Just the kind of people you would want ruling your country, right?

So, it was ok when Saddam and his Baathist party was slaughtering his people, but not ok when Al-Qaeda does it? How does this work?

38

[quote]pat36 wrote:
What you fail to realize is that they would hate us no matter what [/quote]

This is the bottom line with Lixy.

40

[quote]lixy wrote:
Now for the question: Why do you bring this up? Is it OK to go around bombing and invading countries because “they would hate us no matter what”? I don’t see how your statement relates to the thread.[/quote]

The only country we invaded because “they hate us no matter what” was Afghanistan in responce to the 9-11 attacks on our country.

If there were no terrorists in Iraq prior to our invasion like you alledge, then we did not attack Iraq because “they hate us no matter what”, since, according to you, the people who would feel this way were not in the country before the attack.

We attacked Iraq because of the threat of weapons of mass destruction which could have been sold to terrorists and used against us.

They caught a few people in Slovakia trying to sell nuclear material this week:

So regardless of whether or not Saddam actually had any weapons of mass destruction, or if those weapons were actually moved to Syria or Iran prior to the invasion, the threat of nuclear terrorism and dirty bombs is a real one.

(Possibly the Bin Laden tape released this week was forshadowing the sale of the material. Too bad for him it was a bust. Not the first time a plan was discovered and stopped and right after a Bin Laden tape comes out talking about the attack which never happened.)