T Nation

The War on Drugs

With all the negative concerning the War on Drugs and with the deficit being so astronomical, why does not America end this war?

http://org2.democracyinaction.org/o/5663/t/3881/tellafriend.jsp?tell_a_friend_KEY=415&key=3788423

Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust.[/quote]

But that would mean to take a long hard look in the mirror and see what those “peoples” role is in all of this.

Who wants to be the Germans that looked away?

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.[/quote]

Here, here! Well said.

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.[/quote]

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?

[quote]snipeout wrote:
I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?[/quote]

Why should people who do not put these substances in their body be obligated to pay for those who do – both from an enforcement and a rehabilitation perspective.

Do you not understand the moral implications of what you are saying? There would be no “drain” on society if “our leaders” would reassess all entitlements.

Junkies aren’t my problem.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?[/quote]

You think all the cool kids in the 19th century were on laudanum?

Anyway, you still have the basic assumption that society must react to peoples drug abuse, because otherwise, how could they be a drain on society?

Why?

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?[/quote]

I don’t think it will make America better or worse. It costs billions of dollars a year to fight something that cannot be won. It cost about 800-1000 dollars to treat an addict and 40,000 a year to incarcerate them.

Don’t assume that legalized drugs would increase usage. According to a zogby poll 99% of people said ‘NO’ to using hard drugs if they were made legal. I actually think in the long run usage would go down because the stigma and forbidden fruit element would be gone. The Netherlands has half the usage rate of the US in marijuana consumption, according to some people who live there it “just isn’t cool anymore”. I actually heard a speech from a lady who lived in Amsterdam say the first time she got high was in America. When asked, why ,she said “because it is legal where I come from so it is no big deal, but in America it is forbidden and dangerous.”

Look at it this way, we cut cigarette smoking in half in the last 15-20 years. It wasn’t because we arrested and jailed smokers, but we educated them.

LOL. You’ve been on quite a roll lately.

[quote]orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?

You think all the cool kids in the 19th century were on laudanum?

Anyway, you still have the basic assumption that society must react to peoples drug abuse, because otherwise, how could they be a drain on society?

Why?

[/quote]

Because cigarettes and alcohols wide availability already costs us, so in turn making drugs more easily available would cost us too.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?

You think all the cool kids in the 19th century were on laudanum?

Anyway, you still have the basic assumption that society must react to peoples drug abuse, because otherwise, how could they be a drain on society?

Why?

Because cigarettes and alcohols wide availability already costs us, so in turn making drugs more easily available would cost us too.[/quote]

Drugs are already easily available for sale to anyone of any age, of any potency, some may be laced or not, in every city in America. Who knows what is in the drugs a high school aged kid might buy. An unregulated market hold no one accountable. One reason alcohol prohibition ended was too many child alcoholics- drug dealers don’t check ID’s

[quote]snipeout wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?

You think all the cool kids in the 19th century were on laudanum?

Anyway, you still have the basic assumption that society must react to peoples drug abuse, because otherwise, how could they be a drain on society?

Why?

Because cigarettes and alcohols wide availability already costs us, so in turn making drugs more easily available would cost us too.[/quote]

You have a point.

As long as we make other peoples business our business there is no logical cut-off point.

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

I don’t think it will make America better or worse. It costs billions of dollars a year to fight something that cannot be won. It cost about 800-1000 dollars to treat an addict and 40,000 a year to incarcerate them
[/quote]

I don’t know if you meant 800-1000 a year, but from what I heard from a nurse that does the paperwork for medicad at a rehab facility, that’s about how much a day they get. Covers their “treatments”, food money or aka cigarette money, or some extra pocket change as they see fit, while the administrators, office workers and most of all the owners are enjoying huge profits, sizable bonuses and bragging rights to expensive vacations to Hawaii and Figi. All the while the staff, CNAs-LPN’s are getting severely underpaid to put up with these assholes.

If we were to legalize drugs, it would have to be with a catch. They are responsible completely for it. They aren’t elegible to receive any medicad or any government/taxpayer aid, they have to pay for their own addiction. Rather than going to jail for any reckless behavior as a result, they do lots of community service. Obviously if they commit murder, they will of course be subject to the consequences of that.

Non of this, he was in an altered state and needs to be admitted to the nut house, harm an innocent child physically as a result of the addiction, or contributing to the delinquency of a minor with it remains jail time and loss of that child. Same goes if their addiction money is only going for drugs and not for their childs well being till 17 or 18 years of age, they will have them removed. These ideas are open to improvment but I think it’s a start on improving what we got now, which isn’t working at all. It’s pretty much the same thing we got going already, but with a few differences.

[quote]orion wrote:

Because cigarettes and alcohols wide availability already costs us, so in turn making drugs more easily available would cost us too.

You have a point.

As long as we make other peoples business our business there is no logical cut-off point.

[/quote]

And this is my issue with most “legalize it” folks. Personal freedom? Most would say sure. But the consequences of personal freedom? No, that’s a social responsibility.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
And this is my issue with most “legalize it” folks. Personal freedom? Most would say sure. But the consequences of personal freedom? No, that’s a social responsibility.[/quote]

How about just personal responsibility?

Society cannot be held responsible for the actions of individual people.

I don’t understand the stigma that some of you are attaching to illegal drugs. For most of them, the only reason that they are illegal today is that they were illegal yesterday. There are numerous currently legal substances that if they were discovered today someone would be pressing for them to be illegal.

Their are plenty of people that are using class A drugs in a manageable way that are not impacting society in any negative way. You probably work with several serious drug users that you don’t even know that they are taking something.

The main problems caused by illegal drugs are because they are expensive, it is hard to guarantee quality and the trade is controlled by criminals. Basically the problem with illegal drugs is that they are illegal.

There is no evidence (that I am aware of) to indicate that usage would increase if drugs were legalised.

The kind of problem drug users that you are talking about sound like something out of a 60s drug education video. And if they do exist, they don’t sound like people that are going to be abiding by the prohibition in the first place.

[quote]jayski wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:

I don’t think it will make America better or worse. It costs billions of dollars a year to fight something that cannot be won. It cost about 800-1000 dollars to treat an addict and 40,000 a year to incarcerate them

I don’t know if you meant 800-1000 a year, but from what I heard from a nurse that does the paperwork for medicad at a rehab facility, that’s about how much a day they get. Covers their “treatments”, food money or aka cigarette money, or some extra pocket change as they see fit, while the administrators, office workers and most of all the owners are enjoying huge profits, sizable bonuses and bragging rights to expensive vacations to Hawaii and Figi. All the while the staff, CNAs-LPN’s are getting severely underpaid to put up with these assholes.

If we were to legalize drugs, it would have to be with a catch. They are responsible completely for it. They aren’t elegible to receive any medicad or any government/taxpayer aid, they have to pay for their own addiction. Rather than going to jail for any reckless behavior as a result, they do lots of community service. Obviously if they commit murder, they will of course be subject to the consequences of that.

Non of this, he was in an altered state and needs to be admitted to the nut house, harm an innocent child physically as a result of the addiction, or contributing to the delinquency of a minor with it remains jail time and loss of that child. Same goes if their addiction money is only going for drugs and not for their childs well being till 17 or 18 years of age, they will have them removed. These ideas are open to improvment but I think it’s a start on improving what we got now, which isn’t working at all. It’s pretty much the same thing we got going already, but with a few differences.[/quote]

So in a nutshell treat illegal drugs like we already do alcohol. I totally agree.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?[/quote]

You know, I would agree with you if the war could claim one victory. In a half an hour, I could buy any drug on the market. So what benefit came out of those trillions of dollars

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Because too many people on both sides profit from it. Law enforcement can justify it’s huge budget while seizing people’s property, banks love the laundered money going through it, politicians love the built in ‘tough on crime’ mantra(though how can you be tough on crime giving criminals a means of revenue and employment).

The war on (some)drugs is a scam by the elite of society to turn millions of people into second class citizens stripped of employment and stripped of most basic rights.

What is truly scary is that America has private prisons, these private prisons hire lobbyists to lobby for longer mandatory sentences. Look at what happened in California with prop 5, the prison guard union spent millions of dollars campaigning against it.

The only way the war on drugs will end is if people start to see drug users as like the Jews in the holocaust. The loss of basic human rights and the human rights violations against drugs users is what the drug reform movement needs to focus on.

Little bit of an issue with the prison info. Private prisons and state prisons have 2 different unions. Private prisons have nothing to do with state prions.

I do agree with your comment on the war on SOME drugs. Do you really think legalizing hard drugs will better America? Don’t you think that a country full of legalized addicts would be a huge drain? Would you also not agree that legalizing all drugs would remove the stigma and create many more users?[/quote]

The problem with your line of questioning Snipeout is this. It sounds like you have bought into the propaganda. I can assure you that if so called hard drugs were legalized people wouldn’t just all run out and become addicts. So no I wouldn’t agree.

The stigma of it all is not much of an impediment. ie Alcohol is legal but stigma hasn’t stopped people from becoming alcoholics. Stigma may cause many people to deny they are alcoholics but it hasn’t stopped them.

The war on drugs is a huge drain, that has sucked up money that could be used for treatment. We are spending well over a hundred billion dollars on the war on drugs every year.

Because of our deficits all of that money can be considered borrowed money. A bill that is being dumped on our children, with nothing to show for it.

A really important issue is all the billions of dollars that is being put into the hands of criminals. That kind of money can buy a lot of power and influence. The war on drugs is empowering the kind of people who should never be empowered. This cannot be good for the future of civilization.

Alcohol by the way is as hard of a drug as there is. It is the most dangerous drug there is. ie Alcohol causes blackouts. Crack heroin, meth don’t cause blackouts. For those of you who don’t know what a blackout is, a blackout is when you have consumed enough alcohol that your brain looses consciousness, but instead of collapsing unconscious like with other drugs, you are still awake running around causing mayhem.

Let’s not forget that alcohol is the original date rape drug.

The other common misconception about legalization is that there would be absolutely no controls over distribution and use. The propaganda is people would just be using everywhere. As a rhetorical tactic that is an effective exaggeration. But the fact is there are ways we could still have control so people aren’t using in public or in front of kids. In fact with a legalization we could have much more effective control than we have now, because we could establish specific areas for consumption where kids aren’t allowed. Like we do with alcohol.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
orion wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:

Because cigarettes and alcohols wide availability already costs us, so in turn making drugs more easily available would cost us too.[/quote]

Alcohol may cost us in terms of accidents and law enforcement. But what about the taxes we raise from alcohol and all the people whose livelihoods depend the sale and consumption of alcohol?

What about the benefit to society from keeping dirt bag pimps like Al Capone from becoming incredibly wealthy and buying off government officials?

Cigarettes actually used to save us money, because they killed people off before they become old enough to need a lot of expensive medical care like joint replacements, cataract surgery, heart surgery Alzheimer medication or social security, pensions, etc…