The War on Boys

I love when a random person on the internet tells another random person on the internet they are flat out wrong and then back that up with their opinion.

Fucking lol.

Spanking is perfectly fine within reason.

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.
[/quote]

First of all, I want to say, I applaud you for negotiating with your child and limiting physical violence as much as you do.
Second It’s absolutely appropriate to use force to pull your child out of dangerous situations WHEN IT"S UNAVOIDABLE.
On the rest you’re absolutely wrong. I have negotiated with a 2 year old(my nephew), but more importantly his parents prepare him BEFORE HAND for what may be dangerous making almost no danger actually unavoidable.[/quote]

Ah, your nephew. I see. I’m not trying to patronize you, but you have no experience with what you’re talking about. I have cousins, I have nieces and nephews, I’ve even watched them for entire weekends prior to having a child of my own. It’s not the same, not by a country mile.

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. My son is turning 5 this year and we make agreements all the time about how he’s going to act, when we’re going to leave, prep him that hey “we’re leaving in 10 minutes” and you know what he does? He sometimes breaks the deals we make, regardless of preparation, because that’s what 5 year olds do. This doesn’t always result in physical punishment, obviously, but it goes to show how little you know about raising children.

[quote]Again, I really do applaud you for what looks like general success in doing just that and limiting physical violence.

However, giving yourself the leeway to consider using punishment as dispute resolution with your child means you will only resort to using violence more in the future when things get harder.

Lots of parents raise their kids successfully without using punishment and manipulation from the beginning.[/quote]

There are also lots of parents that raise their kids successfully while using physical punishment as an option. [quote]

Again, I think you’ve done a VASTLY better job than most and hope you’ll look into researching peaceful parenting to do even better. :slight_smile:

Finally…
The initiation of force is always wrong. You wouldn’t attempt to dominate a grown person with physical assaults and it’s equally as wrong to do so for a child.
In fact, if you’ve never been really attacked by a parent as a child, it’s difficult to convey how truly horrifying it is.

Imagine being attacked by a 22 foot, 900 pound giant that could easily kill you and you have no idea when they are going to stop or if they can even stop themselves.
Even worse, there’s nothing you can do to escape and nothing you can say to stop them because they think they are morally in the right and ACTUALLY BENEFITING YOU with the assault.

You wouldn’t be willing to accept that kind of domination and punishment as an adult and it’s just as evil as a child.[/quote]

No idea if they are going to stop or even if they can stop themselves? If a child is thinking that, it sounds more like abuse and not even what we’re talking about here. I’m talking about a well timed, even keeled slap on the leg for repeated doing something you’ve been told not to do. I’m not talking about beatings here.

Edit - trying to fix the quotes.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Have you ever had to deal with children before? Or perhaps any siblings who absolutely refused to listen to you, simply because their pride was hurt?
[/quote]

Yes, of course I have. I spent like 40 hours a week with my nephew from the ages of 9 months to 6 years when his mother had to go back to work part time due to his father’s illness.

I never used punishment of any kind because his mother spent almost every waking moment of her time away from work to prepare, educate, and negotiate with her son. the rare exceptions to when negotiation wasn’t used was in infancy where they bribed their kids with treats and positive reinforcement to potty train etc…

Further, I’m not the only one who’s seen success with this. There is a huge healthy community of parents worldwide(mostly in North America) who practice peaceful parenting.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.
[/quote]

First of all, I want to say, I applaud you for negotiating with your child and limiting physical violence as much as you do.
Second It’s absolutely appropriate to use force to pull your child out of dangerous situations WHEN IT"S UNAVOIDABLE.
On the rest you’re absolutely wrong. I have negotiated with a 2 year old(my nephew), but more importantly his parents prepare him BEFORE HAND for what may be dangerous making almost no danger actually unavoidable.[/quote]

Ah, your nephew. I see. I’m not trying to patronize you, but you have no experience with what you’re talking about. I have cousins, I have nieces and nephews, I’ve even watched them for entire weekends prior to having a child of my own. It’s not the same, not by a country mile.

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. My son is turning 5 this year and we make agreements all the time about how he’s going to act, when we’re going to leave, prep him that hey “we’re leaving in 10 minutes” and you know what he does? He sometimes breaks the deals we make, regardless of preparation, because that’s what 5 year olds do. This doesn’t always result in physical punishment, obviously, but it goes to show how little you know about raising children.

[quote]Again, I really do applaud you for what looks like general success in doing just that and limiting physical violence.

However, giving yourself the leeway to consider using punishment as dispute resolution with your child means you will only resort to using violence more in the future when things get harder.

Lots of parents raise their kids successfully without using punishment and manipulation from the beginning.[/quote]

There are also lots of parents that raise their kids successfully while using physical punishment as an option. [quote]

Again, I think you’ve done a VASTLY better job than most and hope you’ll look into researching peaceful parenting to do even better. :slight_smile:

Finally…
The initiation of force is always wrong. You wouldn’t attempt to dominate a grown person with physical assaults and it’s equally as wrong to do so for a child.
In fact, if you’ve never been really attacked by a parent as a child, it’s difficult to convey how truly horrifying it is.

Imagine being attacked by a 22 foot, 900 pound giant that could easily kill you and you have no idea when they are going to stop or if they can even stop themselves.
Even worse, there’s nothing you can do to escape and nothing you can say to stop them because they think they are morally in the right and ACTUALLY BENEFITING YOU with the assault.

You wouldn’t be willing to accept that kind of domination and punishment as an adult and it’s just as evil as a child.[/quote]

No idea if they are going to stop or even if they can stop themselves? If a child is thinking that, it sounds more like abuse and not even what we’re talking about here. I’m talking about a well timed, even keeled slap on the leg for repeated doing something you’ve been told not to do. I’m not talking about beatings here.

Edit - trying to fix the quotes.[/quote]

I can’t tell what you’re responding to in which parts, so let me leave you with the following series on the subject with an abundance of evidence on the topic:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Have you ever had to deal with children before? Or perhaps any siblings who absolutely refused to listen to you, simply because their pride was hurt?
[/quote]

Yes, of course I have. I spent like 40 hours a week with my nephew from the ages of 9 months to 6 years when his mother had to go back to work part time due to his father’s illness.

I never used punishment of any kind because his mother spent almost every waking moment of her time away from work to prepare, educate, and negotiate with her son. the rare exceptions to when negotiation wasn’t used was in infancy where they bribed their kids with treats and positive reinforcement to potty train etc…

Further, I’m not the only one who’s seen success with this. There is a huge healthy community of parents worldwide(mostly in North America) who practice peaceful parenting.[/quote]

Bribing a child, no way that could backfire. No way…

My sister in law and her husband practice peaceful parenting. Their oldest daughter walks all over them and is generally a pain in the fucking ass to deal with. It’s a shame too because she’s cute as a button.

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.
[/quote]

First of all, I want to say, I applaud you for negotiating with your child and limiting physical violence as much as you do.
Second It’s absolutely appropriate to use force to pull your child out of dangerous situations WHEN IT"S UNAVOIDABLE.
On the rest you’re absolutely wrong. I have negotiated with a 2 year old(my nephew), but more importantly his parents prepare him BEFORE HAND for what may be dangerous making almost no danger actually unavoidable.[/quote]

Ah, your nephew. I see. I’m not trying to patronize you, but you have no experience with what you’re talking about. I have cousins, I have nieces and nephews, I’ve even watched them for entire weekends prior to having a child of my own. It’s not the same, not by a country mile.

Again, you have no idea what you’re talking about. My son is turning 5 this year and we make agreements all the time about how he’s going to act, when we’re going to leave, prep him that hey “we’re leaving in 10 minutes” and you know what he does? He sometimes breaks the deals we make, regardless of preparation, because that’s what 5 year olds do. This doesn’t always result in physical punishment, obviously, but it goes to show how little you know about raising children.

[quote]Again, I really do applaud you for what looks like general success in doing just that and limiting physical violence.

However, giving yourself the leeway to consider using punishment as dispute resolution with your child means you will only resort to using violence more in the future when things get harder.

Lots of parents raise their kids successfully without using punishment and manipulation from the beginning.[/quote]

There are also lots of parents that raise their kids successfully while using physical punishment as an option. [quote]

Again, I think you’ve done a VASTLY better job than most and hope you’ll look into researching peaceful parenting to do even better. :slight_smile:

Finally…
The initiation of force is always wrong. You wouldn’t attempt to dominate a grown person with physical assaults and it’s equally as wrong to do so for a child.
In fact, if you’ve never been really attacked by a parent as a child, it’s difficult to convey how truly horrifying it is.

Imagine being attacked by a 22 foot, 900 pound giant that could easily kill you and you have no idea when they are going to stop or if they can even stop themselves.
Even worse, there’s nothing you can do to escape and nothing you can say to stop them because they think they are morally in the right and ACTUALLY BENEFITING YOU with the assault.

You wouldn’t be willing to accept that kind of domination and punishment as an adult and it’s just as evil as a child.[/quote]

No idea if they are going to stop or even if they can stop themselves? If a child is thinking that, it sounds more like abuse and not even what we’re talking about here. I’m talking about a well timed, even keeled slap on the leg for repeated doing something you’ve been told not to do. I’m not talking about beatings here.

Edit - trying to fix the quotes.[/quote]

I can’t tell what you’re responding to in which parts, so let me leave you with the following series on the subject with an abundance of evidence on the topic:

I fixed the quotes. And USMC brings up the point I was trying to make earlier. There is no 1 size fits all for parenting. I can’t even believe that needs to be stated.

What worked for your nephew will not necessarily work for someone else’s child.

Is that inconceivable to you? That children may be different and respond to different things?

My nephew…

That’s gold right there.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

If I was a new parent today, I would home school my kids. [/quote]
[/quote]

What about the lack of social interactions that come with homeschooling?

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.
[/quote]

First of all, I want to say, I applaud you for negotiating with your child and limiting physical violence as much as you do.
Second It’s absolutely appropriate to use force to pull your child out of dangerous situations WHEN IT"S UNAVOIDABLE.
On the rest you’re absolutely wrong. I have negotiated with a 2 year old(my nephew), but more importantly his parents prepare him BEFORE HAND for what may be dangerous making almost no danger actually unavoidable.

Parents resort to attacks on their children when they haven’t properly prepared them and made deals and gotten agreement ahead of time about how they are expected to behave.
Again, I really do applaud you for what looks like general success in doing just that and limiting physical violence.

However, giving yourself the leeway to consider using punishment as dispute resolution with your child means you will only resort to using violence more in the future when things get harder.

Lots of parents raise their kids successfully without using punishment and manipulation from the beginning.

Again, I think you’ve done a VASTLY better job than most and hope you’ll look into researching peaceful parenting to do even better. :slight_smile:

Finally…
The initiation of force is always wrong. You wouldn’t attempt to dominate a grown person with physical assaults and it’s equally as wrong to do so for a child.
In fact, if you’ve never been really attacked by a parent as a child, it’s difficult to convey how truly horrifying it is.

Imagine being attacked by a 22 foot, 900 pound giant that could easily kill you and you have no idea when they are going to stop or if they can even stop themselves.
Even worse, there’s nothing you can do to escape and nothing you can say to stop them because they think they are morally in the right and ACTUALLY BENEFITING YOU with the assault.

You wouldn’t be willing to accept that kind of domination and punishment as an adult and it’s just as evil as a child.[/quote]
So you do not have kids.

[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

If I was a new parent today, I would home school my kids. [/quote]
[/quote]

What about the lack of social interactions that come with homeschooling?[/quote]

I was home schooled for a year (7th grade). I spent evening and weekends playing sports so there was plenty of interaction. I went outside and played with neighborhood kids too. Not sure if that’s a viable option nowadays.

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
Finally…
The initiation of force is always wrong. You wouldn’t attempt to dominate a grown person with physical assaults and it’s equally as wrong to do so for a child.
In fact, if you’ve never been really attacked by a parent as a child, it’s difficult to convey how truly horrifying it is.

Imagine being attacked by a 22 foot, 900 pound giant that could easily kill you and you have no idea when they are going to stop or if they can even stop themselves.
Even worse, there’s nothing you can do to escape and nothing you can say to stop them because they think they are morally in the right and ACTUALLY BENEFITING YOU with the assault.

You wouldn’t be willing to accept that kind of domination and punishment as an adult and it’s just as evil as a child.[/quote]

There is a significant difference between using corporeal punishment in the controlled manner (i.e. setting up the rules of when you’ll get punished and vice versa) and physical abuse.

What you described here is physical abuse. It is not corporeal punishment as a legitimate punishment.

There is no difference between the abuse you described here and a parent arbitrarily forcing a kid to sit on a time-out chair and make them sit there for a long time.

The key is that the child understands why he/she is being punished and genuinely feeling remorse/accepting the punishment. The method of punishment used doesn’t really matter unless that is achieving.

[quote]Aggv wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
dodge ball and tag are considered ‘bullying’ or ‘human target’ games. They are banned in many states…[/quote]

please tell me this is a joke? Seriously, just lie if it isnt because i’d like to keep my faith in humanity at least til the news at 6. [/quote]

Dodgeball was banned in the school district where I grew up a little over 10 years. They weren’t using the “human target” rhetoric yet but the gym teachers told us it was PC bullshit in so many words

Side question, anyone ever have to stand in the corner?

That punishment was fucking ridiculous, though a walk in the park compared to the others I received.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Phoenix44e wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]beachguy498 wrote:

If I was a new parent today, I would home school my kids. [/quote]
[/quote]

What about the lack of social interactions that come with homeschooling?[/quote]

I was home schooled for a year (7th grade). I spent evening and weekends playing sports so there was plenty of interaction. I went outside and played with neighborhood kids too. Not sure if that’s a viable option nowadays. [/quote]

Well what about social interactions with the opposite sex, or people who generally wouldn’t run in the same circle as you?