The War on Boys

Off Topic
61

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

Okay, fair enough. But would an analogy be the “mean girls” of middle school for females? Most of us get beaten up, figuratively speaking, but come out just fine on the other side. Others of us don’t. We all know women who can’t get along with other women due to their being, every single one but the one speaking of it, catty bitches. Something went wrong for them in middle school and instead of learning to negotiate the social and dating environment, they broke.[/quote]

This is why I think sports are so valuable as a socialization tool for boys and girls. You can physically dominate someone else (or be physically dominated) and when the whistle blows, you’re back to being best friends. That ability to turn your aggression on and off is a skill that has to be learned. I don’t think women get enough practice at it when they’re young.

If you’re a boy and, after the whistle blows in a game, you keep going after someone, then you’re a spaz and you’ll quickly get put back in your place. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get run over you learn that it’s not so much fun and you start to learn what it takes to not get killed. But you learn to modulate your aggression based on the circumstances. I don’t think this is as ingrained for women. So a grown woman who is considered a bitch in the workplace, has not learned to dial her aggression back when it’s not appropriate. Likewise, the woman who gets passed over for raises and promotions might need to bring up her aggressiveness at times.

[quote]
I think the same happens to boys. Some boys get knocked down and just stay there.

Not to change the direction of the thread to girls, but rather to question is it always good? Should there be an opt-out? Or are these boys (and girls) broken before they ever face schoolyard challenges? [/quote]

I think that learning to compete is more important than music class, or art class, or Spanish class. I wouldn’t let someone opt of gym anymore than I’d let someone opt out of art.*

  • Teaching someone how to compete can be more nuanced than chucking balls at one another’s heads. Improving your time in the mile run, getting one more chin up, getting another foot higher in a rope climb are all ways to learn to compete both against others and yourself.
62

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

Okay, fair enough. But would an analogy be the “mean girls” of middle school for females? Most of us get beaten up, figuratively speaking, but come out just fine on the other side. Others of us don’t. We all know women who can’t get along with other women due to their being, every single one but the one speaking of it, catty bitches. Something went wrong for them in middle school and instead of learning to negotiate the social and dating environment, they broke.[/quote]

This is why I think sports are so valuable as a socialization tool for boys and girls. You can physically dominate someone else (or be physically dominated) and when the whistle blows, you’re back to being best friends. That ability to turn your aggression on and off is a skill that has to be learned. I don’t think women get enough practice at it when they’re young.

If you’re a boy and, after the whistle blows in a game, you keep going after someone, then you’re a spaz and you’ll quickly get put back in your place. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get run over you learn that it’s not so much fun and you start to learn what it takes to not get killed. But you learn to modulate your aggression based on the circumstances. I don’t think this is as ingrained for women. So a grown woman who is considered a bitch in the workplace, has not learned to dial her aggression back when it’s not appropriate. Likewise, the woman who gets passed over for raises and promotions might need to bring up her aggressiveness at times.

X2. Plus the “beating down” that girls receive in middle school is totally different from the middle school beat down that is received by boys. Boys is pain and just temporary. Getting physically dominated is much easier to take and a lot easier to learn to fight against than getting ganged up on and emotionally battered when girls are already going through such an awkward time. Girls mental games and boys physical games are not even on the same playing field in terms of long lasting effects.

63

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

Okay, fair enough. But would an analogy be the “mean girls” of middle school for females? Most of us get beaten up, figuratively speaking, but come out just fine on the other side. Others of us don’t. We all know women who can’t get along with other women due to their being, every single one but the one speaking of it, catty bitches. Something went wrong for them in middle school and instead of learning to negotiate the social and dating environment, they broke.[/quote]

This is why I think sports are so valuable as a socialization tool for boys and girls. You can physically dominate someone else (or be physically dominated) and when the whistle blows, you’re back to being best friends. That ability to turn your aggression on and off is a skill that has to be learned. I don’t think women get enough practice at it when they’re young.

If you’re a boy and, after the whistle blows in a game, you keep going after someone, then you’re a spaz and you’ll quickly get put back in your place. Likewise, if you allow yourself to get run over you learn that it’s not so much fun and you start to learn what it takes to not get killed. But you learn to modulate your aggression based on the circumstances. I don’t think this is as ingrained for women. So a grown woman who is considered a bitch in the workplace, has not learned to dial her aggression back when it’s not appropriate. Likewise, the woman who gets passed over for raises and promotions might need to bring up her aggressiveness at times.

I learned all that just fine playing Scrabble. :stuck_out_tongue:

Seriously, though, I don’t know whether I think you’re all in agreement because the site we’re on is athletic or whether I believe what you’re saying. I’m highly competitive, though I hated gym. I had to get past the damage it did me, it did NOT leave me more confident. What did leave me more confident was my first job IN a gym, where I started hanging out with nice jocks who liked me for my personality - and also my ability to sell the shit out of gym memberships to awkward, unathletic people, whom I then nurtured along.

I’m not saying I don’t see your point, necessariy. I’m still pondering it.

64

“We believe that a violent ground acquisition game such as football is in fact a crypto-facist metaphor for nuclear war.”

– D. Lutz

65

Without getting too personal, can I ask what you hated about gym? My gym class in HS was very expansive. We had 3 week units of volleyball, badminton, softball, flag football, general fitness, running, and weights. Dodgeball and floor hockey were used as filler activities when we were supposed to be outside, but it was raining.

We also had 3 weeks of swimming and I could see how that would be damaging. We used to have to wear school issued black nylon trunks and our creepy swim coach would stand at the entrance to the showers and watch us take our trunks off and shower before getting dressed for class. No joke, two years after I left, the foster kids he and his wife took care of accused him of molestation.

A buddy of mine went to a Catholic, all-boys HS and swim class was naked. He graduated in the late 70s or early 80s.

66

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

X2. Plus the “beating down” that girls receive in middle school is totally different from the middle school beat down that is received by boys. Boys is pain and just temporary. Getting physically dominated is much easier to take and a lot easier to learn to fight against than getting ganged up on and emotionally battered when girls are already going through such an awkward time. Girls mental games and boys physical games are not even on the same playing field in terms of long lasting effects. [/quote]

"A man will cut your arm off and throw it in a river, but he’ll leave you as a human being intact. He won’t fuck with who you are. Women are non-violent but they will shit inside of your heart. "

67

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:

…I would imagine that small, nerdy boys were tortured…

[/quote]

That kind of “torture” might not be that bad of a thing. It might be a motivator to get bigger – cue the intelligent and pursuit of muscle anthem – or at the least, motivate a small boy to get faster and smarter (outwit those throwing the balls).

I was a small boy throughout school. Dodgeball was good for me. I loved it.

In my high school we did not play coed dodgeball. That would’ve been sheer carnage but earlier, say in elementary schools when girls weren’t too physically outmatched, it should be OK.

If you think about it a lot of life’s lessons could and have been taught by a game like dodgeball. If you’re a slacker you can loaf in P.E. football, basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc. and not pay a price. Go with that mentality in dodgeball and you get directly punished.[/quote]

x2 I was a small kid too, and generally reserved. I was game but would generally get destroyed by games like “kill the man with the ball” but dodgeball was my chance to shine, I would catch anything, and when that ball was in my hand I would aim right for the fucking face! I loved it. In any sports I played I always had a chip on my shoulder, I guess it started with dodge ball, so I appreciate those times.

Ill never forget when I made this fat kids nose bleed, I have to admit it was awesome.

68

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
These parents are idiots and are raising giant pansies. Boys like to hurt each other and get hurt, if they don’t they are too docile and need some toughening up and to lay off the add meds.
[/quote]

Honestly, I’m terrified of how badly my future parenting methods will conflict with the expected parenting methods of the future.

If I did what my parents did, I’d probably go to jail.[/quote]

My wife and I are hoping to have kids in the next year or two. This is probably what scares me the most. [/quote]

You should be more scared of yourself hurting your kids because once you accept physical punishment being okay there’s no turning back.[/quote]

No turning back to what?[/quote]

There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.

69

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

X2. Plus the “beating down” that girls receive in middle school is totally different from the middle school beat down that is received by boys. Boys is pain and just temporary. Getting physically dominated is much easier to take and a lot easier to learn to fight against than getting ganged up on and emotionally battered when girls are already going through such an awkward time. Girls mental games and boys physical games are not even on the same playing field in terms of long lasting effects. [/quote]

"A man will cut your arm off and throw it in a river, but he’ll leave you as a human being intact. He won’t fuck with who you are. Women are non-violent but they will shit inside of your heart. "[/quote]

Women aren’t non-violent. That is total bullshit. Women in relationships intitiate violence just as often and are more likely to cause serious injury because they tend to use weapons more often. They are also far more likely to hit their kids, especially if it’s a boy. WOMEN are the MOST IMPORTANT link in the chain of the cycle of violence in society.

70

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.

71

[quote]pushharder wrote:

If you think about it a lot of life’s lessons could and have been taught by a game like dodgeball. If you’re a slacker you can loaf in P.E. football, basketball, baseball, softball, volleyball, etc. and not pay a price. Go with that mentality in dodgeball and you get directly punished.[/quote]

Agreed.

If you suck at throwing, don’t throw the ball. Try to catch them and pass them off to the guys who have good arms. You don’t want to be the kid who turns his back to the ball and squeals like a pig when hit. Dodgeball is a game of strategy. I had many.

72

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]

I agree.

Also, there is always Heinlein`s theory in Starship Troopers:

Physical pain is nature`s way of teaching us what is good or bad for us.

It is kind of foolish not to use that prewired mechanism.

On the other hand I have never seen any parent using physical pain in a deliberate manner, only people losing their cool.

So, I really don`t know. [/quote]
Of course physical pain teaches us what is good and bad, but you destroy the parent/child bond and ability to reason and negotiate with your child by hitting them.

You become the “bad”.
There’s no evidence that hitting your kid as punishment makes them more compliant in the medium or long term, while there is a mountain of evidence that suggests it makes them more violent and dysfunctional in many ways.

There isn’t even enough evidence(it’s mixed) to suggest that hitting your child makes them compliant in the short term.

Also, the vast majority of parents spank their children as punishment. For example, in the UK 80% of mothers spank their children BEFORE THE AGE of 1.

The world is a cesspool of horribly irresponsible parents unfortunately.

73

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.

74

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.
[/quote]

Good post, Lanky.
The worst offenders on that side of the argument are ones who do not have kids.

I recall a particular dentist a while back shoving his childless opinion on the forum about how physical “abuse” won’t harm a kid, and that he turned out alright in light of the physical “abuse” his mom put on him.

75

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Without getting too personal, can I ask what you hated about gym? My gym class in HS was very expansive. We had 3 week units of volleyball, badminton, softball, flag football, general fitness, running, and weights. Dodgeball and floor hockey were used as filler activities when we were supposed to be outside, but it was raining.

We also had 3 weeks of swimming and I could see how that would be damaging. We used to have to wear school issued black nylon trunks and our creepy swim coach would stand at the entrance to the showers and watch us take our trunks off and shower before getting dressed for class. No joke, two years after I left, the foster kids he and his wife took care of accused him of molestation.

A buddy of mine went to a Catholic, all-boys HS and swim class was naked. He graduated in the late 70s or early 80s.[/quote]

I have very poor, or maybe inconsistent is a better word, eye-hand coordination, so I sucked at every single game. Some of this I managed to ameliorate after I left school by really studying what others are doing and imitating it - the positioning and body movements and such. But back then it was just painful. I was never the last one picked for teams because I had friends and wasn’t fat or mentally retarded, but I was a fairly consistent second-to-last. People laughed. (And I’m sensitive!)

I would say that a benefit of this to me as an adult (same thing being an awkward, dorky girl looks-wise) is that I’m so fucking happy with all the things I can do decently now. I would think I’d be among the first females chosen for a co-ed team now, assuming age peers. And I can get dates! So maybe that supports the posters saying it makes you try harder.

76

[quote]undoredo wrote:
I never found “getting picked last” to hurt. I thought it was a sensible way to try to make the teams roughly even in skill. I liked “getting picked last” a lot better than I liked getting clobbered by an opposing team full of the best athletes.
[/quote]

Huh?

I got picked last because I was the slowest and fattest kid in the class. Nobody wanted me. It was a deliberate attempt to get all the athletic kids in your team.

Which elementary school kid ever wanted to balance the team out so that things are fair?

77

[quote]TooHuman wrote:
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Have you ever had to deal with children before? Or perhaps any siblings who absolutely refused to listen to you, simply because their pride was hurt?

78

Thinking back, we never picked teams in gym, only recess. It took too long in gym, so either the teacher would have us count off (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4…team 1 would play 3 and team 2 would play 4) or we would line up in rows before gym got started and row 1 would play row 2, etc.

79

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

No turning back to what?[/quote]

You can’t unslap those tears off your child’s face.
[/quote]

Well, obvi.

Is that it? Or is there some far more nefarious road you go down and there is no turning back?[/quote]

From how I read it, TH posits that a more enlightened society will put spanking on par with slavery.
[/quote]
That’s how I read it, too.

But I am inclined to think a more “enlightened” society will inflict unfathomable mental cruelty on children while smugly congratulating itself on not using corporal punishment.
[/quote]
Mental cruelty isn’t any more favorable to spanking of course. They should be treated as full human beings with limited knowledge and physical faculties. In other words, negotiation instead of mental manipulation and cruelty.[/quote]

Ever tried to negotiate with a 2 year old? How about trying to talk them out of doing something you know to be dangerous?

You think that works?

FTR, I can count on 1 hand the number of times I put my hand to my son. He doesn’t fear me, he constantly still tries to make “deals” with me and I don’t feel like I’ve broken any parental bond.

Overall, I think parents who rely on physical punishment as their primary disciplinary measure are doing their children a disservice. That’s not to say it can’t be useful in limited circumstances.

And even more importantly, anyone, including you or anyone else on the other side of this debate you’re trying to get into, who makes absolute statements about how to raise children is wrong. There is no one size fits all and all children are different.
[/quote]

First of all, I want to say, I applaud you for negotiating with your child and limiting physical violence as much as you do.
Second It’s absolutely appropriate to use force to pull your child out of dangerous situations WHEN IT"S UNAVOIDABLE.
On the rest you’re absolutely wrong. I have negotiated with a 2 year old(my nephew), but more importantly his parents prepare him BEFORE HAND for what may be dangerous making almost no danger actually unavoidable.

Parents resort to attacks on their children when they haven’t properly prepared them and made deals and gotten agreement ahead of time about how they are expected to behave.
Again, I really do applaud you for what looks like general success in doing just that and limiting physical violence.

However, giving yourself the leeway to consider using punishment as dispute resolution with your child means you will only resort to using violence more in the future when things get harder.

Lots of parents raise their kids successfully without using punishment and manipulation from the beginning.

Again, I think you’ve done a VASTLY better job than most and hope you’ll look into researching peaceful parenting to do even better. :slight_smile:

Finally…
The initiation of force is always wrong. You wouldn’t attempt to dominate a grown person with physical assaults and it’s equally as wrong to do so for a child.
In fact, if you’ve never been really attacked by a parent as a child, it’s difficult to convey how truly horrifying it is.

Imagine being attacked by a 22 foot, 900 pound giant that could easily kill you and you have no idea when they are going to stop or if they can even stop themselves.
Even worse, there’s nothing you can do to escape and nothing you can say to stop them because they think they are morally in the right and ACTUALLY BENEFITING YOU with the assault.

You wouldn’t be willing to accept that kind of domination and punishment as an adult and it’s just as evil as a child.

80

School is a joke. After reading, writing, math and some science it’s a whole lot of bullcrap. History, for one, is probably the worst offender.

As far as gym class and recess…I remember scraped knees and elbows, bloody noses and fat lips, and dirt streaks on my clothes. To say this sort of thing isn’t normal is ridiculous. Nobody wants to see their kid get smashed “playing” but at the same time, play is a huge part of learning and adapting. Learn to win, lose, succeed, and suck. Otherwise, what are we setting up our kids for later in life?

And this ADHD crap…really? We’re talking about teenage boys, right? Are you kidding me?