T Nation

The Vitamin D or the TRT?


#1

Just want to run a scenario by the best and brightest minds here and see if anyone thinks I'm on to something.

I'm 27. I've had all of the classic symptoms of low testosterone for four years with the addition of being freezing cold in the mornings and an intolerance for high GI foods. I have been tested by literally every single specialist you can think of and all anyone has ever found was vitamin D deficiency (last winter) and secondary hypogonadism (this year - no pit. tumor).

Total Test: 208 (300-1100)

So I was started on Axiron - two pumps a day. Most of my symptoms went away at first (brain fog, poor stamina, no sex drive, etc) but then my body started yoyo'ing between feeling good and feeling like complete shit. I kept getting pains in my throat right on my thyroid in between each shift of opposites. By the time I was due for my followup blood work 30 days later, I had lulled into feeling mediocre, having no sex drive, and being pretty foggy headed most of the time. It was basically just like pre-therapy. My doctor ordered the tests and gave me Cialis to get it up (laughable at best). The results:

Total Test: 313 (300-1100)
E2: <20
Progesterone: .97
TSH: .9
(I tried so hard to get the ranges guys but the nurse was a bitch and told me she'd "forgot" them)

Skip forward a few days... I'm down on my luck, researching symptoms, bloodwork, etc. and I come across an article regarding D3 supplementation and how being D deficient requires a very aggressive approach to reverse the condition and that a trip to the beach simply won't cut it. I recalled that a year back, blood work had shown that I was fairly D deficient (all I remember is something like (43 out of a range of 50-80) and I was encourage to get out in the sun a bit. At the time, that's exactly what I'd done. I got out in the sun a couple of days and assumed that was the end of it. Admittedly, I work on a computer all day every day and don't really ever get out in the sun most days.

Armed with my new-found knowledge, a couple of weeks ago I decided to start taking 2000IU of D3 each morning with my largest meal. Now it's not like magic or anything but by the weekend, I started to notice that my testicles were swelling considerably at night. I've woken up several times since with rock hard morning erections (this hasn't happened in 3 years) and all of a sudden my sex drive went through the roof. My skin is oily and my hair appears to actually be falling out LESS. (it had gotten worse when I started the Axiron). My throat quit hurting around my thyroid and my mood got better and leveled off. The bit that takes the cake is that for the first time in a few years, my body is actually warm in the mornings and I don't get frigid cold after breakfast. So what I'm trying to figure out is whether I'm on to something and maybe the D3 was the pre-curser that my body has needed all along. OR, has my body somehow adjusted from shock of the Axiron and started producing a little bit of testosterone itself? I've read on here and elsewhere that even a little bit of exogenous test will completely shut off the HPTA, so it really seems unlikely that it's the latter. Has anyone ever had a similar experience with vitamin D or even test replacement without the vitamin D? I'm asking because it's very tempting to discontinue therapy and see if my body continues to respond this way.


#2

VItamin D is very important for proper hormonal functioning...it is the most easily rectifiable deficiency and really everyone should be supplementing it for optimal health...If you were truly deficient, a regimen of 10k iu/day is pretty appropriate until you get your levels up, then maintain with between 5-10k iu/day indefinitely...

I've seen some accounts of people that have had all their symptoms go away when they got their D levels up, with a corresponding increase in Total T and other hormonal improvements (especially cholesterol).

You're definitely on the right track. This should be emphasized to everyone.


#3

Thanks for the response... it's good to have a vote of confidence with this. I didn't apply the Axiron this morning as I normally would have. It seems my testicles are hard as golfballs so I'm fairly certain my HPTA didn't shut down completely. I've already noticed that I have a bit more energy this morning but less focus. I'll attribute this to higher progesterone but lower testosterone? My body is still really warm which is amazing really - I've been freezing every morning for the last 3 years. I'll keep posting updates here as to how things progress as the external test fully leaves my system. I believe it's supposed to take about 7-10 days to fully leave.

I actually went to a urologist after my experience with the Endo telling me that 313 was normal and convinced the doctor to write a script for test cypionate for me to inject at home. I still plan on picking up the script today just in case my D theory doesn't pan out but I really don't like putting things in my body so I sincerely hope this works.


#4

Well, that didn't go as well as I'd hoped. I made it until about 3 before I was anxious to the point of chewing on my fingers and lost all sense of concentration. If I'm going to go off of TRT, it seems that I might need to kick start things. I ended up applying the Axiron as normal and have really felt off all day from not dosing at the normal time. I hate this shit. I'd kill to relive my early twenties - to not drink as much, not eat so much shit food, and not take so many pro-hormones chasing gains I could've made naturally. I really did do this to myself. Bleh


#5

Sounds to me like thyroid, too much popskull, way too much speed, and possibly having a pair of female cats somewhere inside your body.


#6

Well, I didn't anticipate this being a chronicle of my TRT but seeing as how I'm still on it, I guess that's what it'll be. I'd have picked a better title if I'd realized that! Went to the doctor's office yesterday for my first shot of cypionate. It was a battle to talk the doctor into letting me inject every week instead of every two weeks but she agreed on the condition that I'd come in for the first shot.

What she doesn't know is that I'll be injecting EOD at 30, but given that they gave the first shot, it was 100 as prescribed. That leaves me with the predicament of timing my first shot of the new EOD regimin. Thoughts on how long I should wait? I figured peak concentrations will be reached by tomorrow and I could probably allow for a couple days of drop off before starting.

The other assertion she made is that she wants to have my TT tested tomorrow - so she's basically interested in the peak. This seems useless to me based on what I know and have read in the stickies here. I would normally additionally request E2, Free Test, etc, but this can't be enough time for my system to have adjusted so I'm just going to have the TT done to appease her. Regardless, I'm moving to California at the beginning of the new year, so I only have to put up with this long enough to find a HRT specialist. Once I find a specialist out there, I'll have the full set of tests done.

So on to the fucked up part. I'm curious if anyone else has had a similar experience. I slept like complete shit last night. I woke up repeatedly until about 3am and my heart rate and blood pressure (based on how hard my heartbeat felt) seemed really high. I was clammy and at least three times had to get up to chug water. Anyone else experience this upon starting TRT? I say starting because the Axiron never raised my testosterone to a high enough level to be considered a start to therapy (imo).


#7

sleep issues - one possibility that jumps out to me...

if your cortisol gets too low, your blood sugar drops, if your blood sugar drops too low while you're sleeping, your adrenal will kick in to keep your body functioning which tends to wake you up...

Testosterone works with cortisol... too much testosterone (or bad application timing) can use up your cortisol causing the scenario above.


#8

It does feel a lot like adrenaline... and now that you mention it, it happens a lot during the day when I haven't eaten any carbs in a while. This would probably support your theory. I'd imagine this means my test levels are too high for what my body needs.

I sometimes wonder if most of my issues are actually neurotransmitter related. ie. low dopamine unrelated to testosterone.

It's perfectly normal for some people to have testosterone levels at the lower end of the range. Based on my previous size and strength gains in the gym, I don't think I've ever been at the high-end of the T range. I'd bet that I've probably been in the 400-600 range most of my life.


#9

always a possibility... but there are no realible tests for actual brain level neurotransmitters...

you could also have a possible diabetic or pre-diabetic condition... ever test H1Ac (i think that's the name)?

glucose, or insulin?


#10

Yeah, I've had H1Ac multiple times (assuming this is the average 3mo glucose marker), fasting insulin levels, Glucose Tolerance Test, you name it. All come back perfect. My GP did find my cortisol to actually be high when checked mid-day about 3 months ago (pre-TRT) but my endo said that test was useless and that I should do a 24hr collection cortisol test. I still have the container and instructions for doing this test and have been debating getting this done at my current urologist. Is this test going to tell me anything useful? I keep reading about the "8am" cortisol check. Is one more valuable than the other?

I always wanted to have a glucose tolerance test done with both glucose and insulin levels checked because when I did have the GTT done the nurse said my glucose dropped really fast but that it never went below the safe lower limit. This made me think it might be hyper-insulinemia but none of my doctors thought it was significant so I dropped it. Type-II diabetes does runs rampant in my family but mostly because they don't eat right and exercise like they should so it might not necessarily be a pre-disposition.

For what it's worth, I also have lymphacitic colitis which is possibly an autoimmune disease. Most people hear that and immediately think celiac but I tested negative for this and don't eat bread/oats/dairy anyhow. All of my carbs come from veggies, brown rice, and sweet potatoes and though this diet hasn't cured anything, it doesn't exacerbate things either. Most doctors will readily admit that they don't have a clue why I have this disease and that they know even less as to its connection to my other symptoms.

Where's House when you need him!?


#11

That TSH number, assuming it is 9, is way, way, way high. I've been dealing with a thyroid issue myself and know that a high TSH number can be indicative of hypothyroidism. Has your rt3 or t3 been tested? Have you explored thyroid issues at all?


#12

No, not 9, it's .93 (range: .5 - 5.5) and my t4 was 8.2 (range: 4.5 - 12.5). I always thought it was thyroid as well until all my labs kept showing normal thyroid function. I've even taken the body temperature route which doctors seem to think is nonsense. My body temperature upon waking is 97.2 and it usually makes it up to 97.9 most days but a really good day (and one in which i'll go from being cold to hot) is when it makes it up to 98.2

I've even pointed this out the fact that there has never been a time when my body temperature was 98.2 and I was cold. BUT, doctors fucking dismiss this every single time.


#13

I've found that if I take my injections (test and/or hcg) too close to bedtime, I have a hard time sleeping.


#14

Sounds exactly like me. My RT3 was very high and I am treating that now. Same issue with not sleeping. Same issue with agitation at times. Same issue with body temps. You should have RT3 tested and see if it is high. Very common with guys who have dealt with stress all their lives. Mine was 326 with a range of 90-350. If high, you have hypothyroid symptoms even though the TSH and FT3 look fine.


#15

Pushinit, thanks a million for the response - I'll definitely have this done!


#16

Why am i seeing all these dudes in their 20's early 30's talking about needing TRT. Are they nuts. Even if i needed it, i probably wouldn't get it. What TRT entails, if I'm wrong, let me know. But wouldn't that mean many many trips to the dr's office for shots. and many many visits for blood tests.

Now, from someone who can't stand going to the dr. for anything, that is simply unacceptable. If i need more test, Ill get more test, my way. I will not be a slave to a dr. or to the medical community. there are many ways of getting what you want. I can order anything i choose on the net.


#17

Most folks self-inject at home, so you are not a "slave" to the doctor's office. Once you're dialed in, most folks get blood work done a couple of times per year. The choice that everyone here has made is exactly that, a choice. They each weighed the pros and cons of going on TRT. If you want to know more about "what it entails", then read the stickies - the entire protocol is laid out there. Until you experience it - hopefully you never do - you can't say you would or wouldn't do it. Period.


#18

Like I want to be doing this! I'm searching for every alternative to not having to put up with this shit. I'd argue, if your brain quit telling your nuts to produce the T you need to get out of bed, think clearly, and make your dick grow on demand, you'd be pretty quick to find a solution :wink:


#19

Do not feed the [ignorant] troll


#20

Well, I don't have any blood results in yet but I thought I'd post an update to how things are progressing. I had my first initial shot of 100mg Test Cyp last Tuesday and have been doing 30mg shots every other day since. I quit the axiron the same day as the first shot so the majority of it should have been absorbed out of my skin at this point. I figured my T levels would be a bit high for the first week or so but then taper down into a normal level.

Things I've noticed:
My hair is falling out less. I'm thinking Axiron has a higher DHT conversion rate.
I feel pretty lazy and getting out of bed is a bit of a struggle in the morning.
I'm constantly thinking about sex - the slightest thing can get me going and it's probably a bit too much. Erection problems are non-existent.
No signs of higher E2 other than a twinge more sappy emotion (mostly in the evening for some reason)
My testicles quit hurting when I switched to injections.
I'm still colder than everyone around me.
I still get brain fog but not as much as pre-therapy.
My appetite has increased a bit - more at first, less now.
I've gained about 8 lbs of water weight in the last week. I know it's mostly water weight because I am waking up dehydrated and having to chug water and my whole body looks a little more swollen - muscles, fat, face, etc.

I'm very curious what the blood results are going to show. I said that I was just going to do the total testosterone but curiosity got the best of me and I requested Total Test, Free Test, E2, Progesterone, Prolactin, and Vitamin D

If my sex drive remains at this level and the lethargy remains, I may dial the injections down to 25mg EOD and I still intend to work with a specialist to look for a real root cause. I'll post the lab results once they're available.