God bless 'em. What a powerful image. These men are blatantly defying the Islamists. Maybe I’m not a T-Man for admitting it, but this image put a lump in my throat.
Oops, here’s the caption that went along with the photo, and a link.
Michael Yon emails: “I photographed men and women, both Christians and Muslims, placing a cross atop the St. John’s Church in Baghdad. They had taken the cross from storage and a man washed it before carrying it up to the dome. A Muslim man had invited the American soldiers from ‘Chosen’ Company 2-12 Cavalry to the church, where I videotaped as Muslims and Christians worked and rejoiced at the reopening of St John’s, an occasion all viewed as a sign of hope. The Iraqis asked me to convey a message of thanks to the American people. ‘Thank you, thank you,’ the people were saying. One man said, ‘Thank you for peace.’ Another man, a Muslim, said ‘All the people, all the people in Iraq, Muslim and Christian, is brother.’ The men and women were holding bells, and for the first time in memory freedom rang over the ravaged land between two rivers. (Videotape to follow.)”
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/knx/silence/archives/2007/11/christians_musl.shtml
[quote]lixy wrote:
[/quote]
And these Muslims are freely helping these Christians. By sharing such an article you imply that it takes a secular mass murderering military dictatorship to ensure that Muslims (Islamists) do not oppress, and even exterminate, their Christian neighbors.
Yet, you’ll turn around and critique the US for any relationship with such dictatorships in other muslim nations, where those very same Islamists would otherwise rule. I believe you even suggested it would be better that Islamists do so, as they would be more open to turning the government over to a more liberalized democratic system. I’m thinking Pakistan and SA here. All while somehow missing that religious minorities would face even greater state sanctioned oppression and brutality.
You’ll have to excuse me for believing that you’re trying to argue both sides.
I believe in an another option for Iraqis. One that doesn’t involve a brutal and oppressive secular military dictator, or a brutal and oppressive Islamic theocratic regime. The individuals in this photo are members of this other option. And their allies are US troops.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
And these Muslims are freely helping these Christians. By sharing such an article you imply that it takes a secular mass murderering military dictatorship to ensure that Muslims (Islamists) do not oppress, and even exterminate, their Christian neighbors.
[/quote]
Yes that is exactly what he is saying.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Christians for Saddam? - LewRockwell LewRockwell.com [/quote]
Well Lixy, thanks for the history lesson. Chancy was right, the Sunni and Shia extremists both went after the Christians after the regime fell. Sadr’s militia, the Badr Brigade, the Zarqawi network, and Ansar al Islam all went after christians while purifying the areas they were attempting to control. But something else is happening now, once the extremist Jackassery is suppressed through police action and economic programs we find that the average Iraqi just wants to live beside his neighbor in peace.
95% of Iraqis don’t give a damn what religion the guy down the street is, they just want things to be normal. The average joe (or the average mohammed) in Iraq is just like us on this forum (except they probably don’t exaggerate how much they can bench press). They want to work, get laid and drink. Liquor stores and bars are beginning to re-open in Baghdad. We are starting to see things swing back towards normality.
Newsday | Long Island's & NYC's News Source - Newsday
[quote]BH6 wrote:
Well Lixy, thanks for the history lesson. [/quote]
My pleasure.
Maybe so. But what about the hundreds of thousands dead because of your invasion? What about the millions of refugees? What about Al Mahmudyia, Abu Ghraib, and the numerous other atrocities? What about your permanent bases in Iraq? What about Blackwater shooting at babies and families going on picnics?
If you think Iraqis are going to just forget it ever happened, you’re seriously mistaken. There is no way this generation or the next will ever forgive the US for what happened to their country post-2003. You unleashed a great deal of terror that’ll bite you right in ass.
This is pretty much irrelevant. People are still afraid to get blown up in markets and get shot by Americans. 2007 is still the bloodiest year since the initial 2003 invasion.
Trouble is that you are obviously to blame for the things that went badly, and can’t really take credit for the improvement since it’s mainly attribuable to the Iraqis themselves.
Your president made a monumental mistake by attacking Iraq and the only sensible thing you can do now is get your troops out of there. The Iraqis don’t want you there. The world population don’t want you there. Americans want their troops to withdraw. The latter may be changing in the future in light of the improvements. Americans have no issues with wars. They just don’t like loosing.
Had US troops not been there, every individual in the photo would be slaughtered. It is because of the successes over the last couple months that this took place in broad daylight. But no, let’s prematurely nip this in the bud and let the Islamist regime install itself. Iran will gladly help, if not Al Qaeda.
[quote]lixy wrote:
What about Blackwater shooting at babies and families going on picnics?
[/quote]
The poor, ignorant son of a bitch who would be stupid enough to bring a baby along on a nice afternoon picnic in the middle of a freaking war zone does not get my sympathy.
Sorry.
lol
[quote]lixy wrote:
If you think Iraqis are going to just forget it ever happened, you’re seriously mistaken. There is no way this generation or the next will ever forgive the US for what happened to their country post-2003. You unleashed a great deal of terror that’ll bite you right in ass.
[/quote]
I remember Lebanon. They were in a similar situation. They got screwed over by Israel, Iran and Syria. The US and UN were trying their best to help the country and they got shot at, kidnapped and killed. It was much like the situation in Iraq today with terrorists of different affiliations running amock.
Fast foreward to 2007. Lebanon is a democracy, although under siege by Syria and Iran. The US is it’s ally.
Ironic, no?
[quote]lixy wrote:
Trouble is that you are obviously to blame for the things that went badly, and can’t really take credit for the improvement since it’s mainly attribuable to the Iraqis themselves.
[/quote]
Yeah, things went wrong. But when we tried to secure the country and re-install utilities and institutions, the people who were doing so were kidnapped and beheaded. I would blame a lot of Iraq’s post war problems on the resistance who would not let the country get back to normality.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Trouble is that you are obviously to blame for the things that went badly, and can’t really take credit for the improvement since it’s mainly attribuable to the Iraqis themselves.
[/quote]
No Lixy, that is false. It’s precisely because of the sacrifice made by Iraqis AND coalition (not just US) troops, that these Muslims can help their Christian brothers replace a cross. Read the caption again.
And according to another link in this post, they maybe able to go and have a drink together, too.
[quote]lixy wrote:
Maybe so. But what about the hundreds of thousands dead because of your invasion? What about the millions of refugees? What about Al Mahmudyia, Abu Ghraib, and the numerous other atrocities? What about your permanent bases in Iraq? What about Blackwater shooting at babies and families going on picnics? [/quote]
The hundreds of thousands are propaganda miscounting. It is a common theme on anti-US and muslim extremist websites. At least you are staying current on the rehetoric.
Al Mahmudyia and Abu Ghraib were big mistakes, big-big ones, but those soldiers have been tried as criminals and justice has been done.
Permanent bases in Iraq are good. A permanent US prescence in the Middle East will stabilize it, just as it stabilized Korea and Europe.
Blackwater has screwed up, and has only fed the propaganda machine.
Actually, as the Iraqis begin to see the advantages of democracy, they are starting to like it. The citizens of Falluja and Ramadi are electing city councils and mayors. For the first time in most of thier lives, they have voice in local politics. They kind of like it.
Ramadi has more clean water than it ever did under the Saddam regime. Al-Qaim has its first water treatment plant and its first sewer system. People tend to remember that as well.
We didn’t unleash terror, we dragged ugly Islamic extremism out in the open, shook it by its neck and held it up for the world to look at. Some people don’t like that, but it had to be done.
[quote]
This is pretty much irrelevant. People are still afraid to get blown up in markets and get shot by Americans. 2007 is still the bloodiest year since the initial 2003 invasion.
Trouble is that you are obviously to blame for the things that went badly, and can’t really take credit for the improvement since it’s mainly attribuable to the Iraqis themselves.
Your president made a monumental mistake by attacking Iraq and the only sensible thing you can do now is get your troops out of there. The Iraqis don’t want you there. The world population don’t want you there. Americans want their troops to withdraw. The latter may be changing in the future in light of the improvements. Americans have no issues with wars. They just don’t like loosing. [/quote]
We can take credit for the improvement, we are building the improvements and teaching the Iraqi’s how to build, fund and maintain thier own improvements. Meet me in Falluja next February and I’ll take you on a tour, you won’t even recognize the place. Ask the people yourself if they want us to leave immediately. I think you will be surprised that they want us to finish building the sewer system before we leave. (they have never had a working sewer system) Come on Lixy, come on out to the Anbar province, where is that “Bring it on bitches” attitude?
You are drinking the extremist kool-aid. Thats cool, but I’m not going to let you continue to spread that crap without a counter-point. Since you are going to be in Sweden writing whatever Mullah Krekar’s website tells you to write, I’ll keep you updated from the ground on how things really are. We will see who has it right.
Here’s some info. on Krekar:
I had no idea who this guy was.
[quote]BH6 wrote:
The hundreds of thousands are propaganda miscounting. It is a common theme on anti-US and muslim extremist websites. At least you are staying current on the rehetoric. [/quote]
I don’t know about that. The figure seems pretty reasonable given the destroyed infrastructure, the deterioration in sanitary conditions, the bombs all over the place, the clashes between different factions, etc…
In fact, the figure Lancet’s quotes is closer to a million. Their method is statistically sound (I’ve read the whole report, and the study is solid).
But hey, if you “don’t do body counts”, how can you be so sure that the British institution is so off base?
It’s something alright. However, it could have been averted had Americans pulled their heads out of their collective asses and sought information back in 2003, instead of swallowing Cheney’s propaganda like gullible kids.
Justice will be served once Bush is tried.
It’s your personal opinion. I believe that US presence in Iraq is a driving force behind extremism and terrorism.
Gee, you think…?
This is exactly the kind of arrogant talk that gives Americans a bad name. You talk as if they were savages who had no idea about the concept of democracy until you “enlightened” them.
Sheesh…
I’ll have to disagree with you here. I have actually seen people turn from jolly fellows to murderous thoughts BECAUSE of the invasion. Shit, even the CIA acknowledges that much.
Gotta run to school now. I’ll take the rest later.
[quote]lixy wrote:
BH6 wrote:
The hundreds of thousands are propaganda miscounting. It is a common theme on anti-US and muslim extremist websites. At least you are staying current on the rehetoric.
I don’t know about that. The figure seems pretty reasonable given the destroyed infrastructure, the deterioration in sanitary conditions, the bombs all over the place, the clashes between different factions, etc…
In fact, the figure Lancet’s quotes is closer to a million. Their method is statistically sound (I’ve read the whole report, and the study is solid).
But hey, if you “don’t do body counts”, how can you be so sure that the British institution is so off base?
Al Mahmudyia and Abu Ghraib were big mistakes, big-big ones, but those soldiers have been tried as criminals and justice has been done.
It’s something alright. However, it could have been averted had Americans pulled their heads out of their collective asses and sought information back in 2003, instead of swallowing Cheney’s propaganda like gullible kids.
Justice will be served once Bush is tried.
Permanent bases in Iraq are good.
It’s your personal opinion. I believe that US presence in Iraq is a driving force behind extremism and terrorism.
Blackwater has screwed up, and has only fed the propaganda machine.
Gee, you think…?
Actually, as the Iraqis begin to see the advantages of democracy, they are starting to like it.
This is exactly the kind of arrogant talk that gives Americans a bad name. You talk as if they were savages who had no idea about the concept of democracy until you “enlightened” them.
Sheesh…
We didn’t unleash terror, we dragged ugly Islamic extremism out in the open, shook it by its neck and held it up for the world to look at. Some people don’t like that, but it had to be done.
I’ll have to disagree with you here. I have actually seen people turn from jolly fellows to murderous thoughts BECAUSE of the invasion. Shit, even the CIA acknowledges that much.
Gotta run to school now. I’ll take the rest later.
[/quote]
No matter how you spin it, the majority of civilian deaths in Iraq are due to muslim and muslim violence. This is a fact and it is not disputable.
lixy has been spewing his arrogance and unknowledgeable opinions since I can recall. It doesn’t make any of it any more true than the fact that in all his narrow-minded rhetoric and all his shit-talking, he can’t claim any of it for a true fact known to him from first-person experience. I couldn’t begin to count how many Tribesmen, elders, holy men, mothers, and orphaned children have thanked me for the work myself and my Company put into Iraq.
This was all while lixy sat in front of his computer and talked shit.
[quote]lixy wrote:
I’ll have to disagree with you here. I have actually seen people turn from jolly fellows to murderous thoughts BECAUSE of the invasion. Shit, even the CIA acknowledges that much.
[/quote]
I highly doubt you’ve seen much more than your computer screen and the bottom of a cereal bowl.
[quote]Contrl wrote:
I couldn’t begin to count how many Tribesmen, elders, holy men, mothers, and orphaned children have thanked me for the work myself and my Company put into Iraq. [/quote]
Yeah, we know. You were greeted as liberators yada yada…
We’ve seen the “Mission accomplished” banner, and the little girl with flowers. And, oh, some Londonians and Madrileños are dying to thank your president for his wisdom. Too bad he isn’t giving them a chance. Not to mention the common folks who are just thrilled to have to spend ever more at the gas station.
Seriously though, it’s only logical that some Kurds and other people oppressed by Saddam see your presence as a lesser evil, but on the grand scheme of things, you’re still the aggressors and invaders. The majority of Iraqis say they were better off under Saddam. Heck, even in the US, 68% are opposing the war according to a CNN poll published earlier this week.
One question though: What good did it do for YOUR country?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
The poor, ignorant son of a bitch who would be stupid enough to bring a baby along on a nice afternoon picnic in the middle of a freaking war zone does not get my sympathy.
Sorry.
lol[/quote]
…A lot of Iraqis live in the “warzone”. Should they send their babies away from home to make sure Blackwater doesn’t kill them, or just stop procreating until the local extremists, insurgents and/or the USA leave the area?