T Nation

THE TALK

Yeah, all good point guys. I was actually really fukin bummed out about it for the rest of the day! Then something kinda weird happened, well not that weird. This guy I’d seen and spoken to once or twice before in my gym happened to be just starting shoulders when I got to the gym and asked if I wanted to lift with him.

I actually approached him first awhile back becaus he clearly knows what he’s doing. Not many guys use drop sets, rest pause and other “advanced techniques” so to speak in my gym. Plus he’s probably a good 2-3 inches shorter then me but outweighs me by a solid 20 lbs of pure muscle. He’s well connected from the sound of things in the whole bb’ing scene in NJ and he’s actually been training with one of the IFBB pros featured in the current Battle for the Mr. Olypmia video. Not going to say wich one but he’s big LOL.

It seems like we have alot in common, ironically he’s in LE and I’m trying to get into LE in september. Plus he trains with his girl and I can tell from their back and forth we’ve got a bit in common. Hence it appears I’ve found a training partner that fits the requirements of

  1. Being much stronger then me.
  2. Being much more muscular then me.
  3. Being a decent number of years older/more experianced then me.
  4. Being VERY consistent in the gym and willing to put a foot up my ass.

Plus he’s a nice dude. SO what the fuck does this have to do with the original topic? Well the whole thing with my old man had me thinking wtf is the point really. He said something along the lines of “What is the purpose? So you can have bigger muscles. It shouldn’t really be that important.” Now mind you this is from a man who has been an athelete and a VERY good one his entire life.

When I first began lifting he would occasionaly pop down into the basement and easily bang out 300+ on the bench without ever really training with weights. Granted he worked as a plumber doing big jobs = big pipes all day long. So I can see where for him muscle doesn’t have the same value it does to me. Wich is something I’ll most likely just leave at that.

Now back to the potential new training partner. I don’t know much of shit about this guy. In fact for all I know he could be the worst person to train with, waist my time, and turn out to be a total asshole. I’ve lifted with him 2 times now so that would be a shock but I’ve been wrong before. Still I find it sort of strange that in one aspect the man who’s strength, opinion and persona I had respected (and still do) so much my entire life has changed. And at the same time this guy who has the same profession as myself, the same sense of humor and attitude, and more drive then anyone I’ve ever trained with suddenly asks me to start training with him.

I’m not going to get to far up my own ass about this other then it’s strange how life plays out sometimes. Clearly my old man will always hold top level as someone to emulate my life from, as IMO any father who’s done his job correct shoudl be. However, one can’t help but feel a sense of discomfort when you begin to realize that not everything they say or do is gold (at least not for you). Of course this isn’t the first time I’ve realized this in my life. In fact I’m sure those of you who have few years on me are reading this and smiling.

Still it’s a tuff thing to come to terms with, fortunatley I’ve spoke to my dad since and while he expressed some concern he was otherwise his usual self, a good man.

BTW, he’s been on HRT of awhile now. The topical cream. Although I think I mentioned that. ALso for the guy who mentioned the heroin thing, funny you mentioned it. My little brother who has been in and out of rehab for dope going on at least 3-4 years now is back at home with my parents.

Soo you can only imagine the overall stigma/view my dad has on drugs or injecting anything into your body that changes you. Not the same things AT all but still I’m sure you can see where he’s coming from.

BTW, 40 I pay rent and it’s kept on record. It’s not much but I do pay, the area I live in is very VERY expensive to own a house, renting also suck and if you know anything about NJ you know how expensive living can be in general.Plus my house if pretty large house and we have a 3 car garage with a converted attic that I stay in full bath, kitchen ect. So it’s a win win situation.

I have my family close by and can help out with my grandmother who has terrible alzheimers disease, I have a nice place with plenty of privacy, and I get to save way more $ then if I was renting. The reason I bring it up is because “if” I sent gear to the house (I do not anymore as it’s not neccessary) and complications arouse. It would be all on me.

Wide:

I didn’t mean anything negative by my remarks. I know how expensive the NE is, fucking unreal. I live in the depth south but have friends in the area. Good luck w the LE thing…

[quote]WideGuy wrote:
Well my dad was waiting on parts for his juicer that broke a long while back and accidentally opened a box of terumo’s. Now, before anyone gives me the whole “Oh you still live with your parents shit” Yup I do. We get along well, we work well as a family and we’re all fine with it. I did just graduate last semester and have work lined up ect. ect. so let’s get back to the topic.

I “kinda” figured that with some of the conversations and the knowledge I have of AAS ergogenic aids and various supplements he already knew what was up. However, I suppose like most things that are frowned upon by society parents no matter what age you are want to think “not my kids”. So he went on to say that everything he had read on it was negative. It causes heart disease, cancer, shrinks your nuts, it’s cheating, and the one that we’ve all played with in our minds “once you cross from lifting weights, eating right, and supplementing to sticking needles in your body you’ve crossed over”.

Now mind you he’s not the typical american and reads quite a bit. He’s mainly into the work of Dr. Weil and a while I’m drawing a blank quite a few other Dr.'s who’s main focus of work is what I guess you would consider life extension? I’ve read a bit of Weil’s work and looked over some of the other publications he’s read. In regaurds to aas there is very little if anything said at all. So the rest of his info as he’s admitted comes from the sources everyone else gets their info. Ie. the media and the occasional documentary/special on the topic.

I brought up the Real Sports Documentary on AAS and ironically he said that the Dr. on their said that aas cause all sorts of health problems ie. high blood pressure, heart disease, kidney failure ect. ect. I mentioned the other Dr. who basically said none of that is true and has never been proven. His responce was something along the lines of “Well it’s just a matter of what Dr. you want to listen to”. I can’t really argue that… can I? Anyway I tried to point out things like the fact that I check my cholesterol levels regularly, don’t drink or smoke, monitor my blood pressure, never abuse orals. Honestly I think that might have changed his view a bit or he might just know I’m not going to change my mind :slight_smile:

We sorta drifted away from the topic and started talking about how bad NSAID’s are for your body. I related that back into the subject and mentioned what night of binge drinking does to your body ect. Overall I think I might have gotten through a little bit? I mean he wasn’t flipping out and to be honest the man has a bit of a temper at times LOL but I love him. Part of me want’s to pull up a few posts on the topic for example T and your ticker came to mind. BUT this is Testosteron magazine and reading an article on AAS on a magazine called testosterone probaly won’t be to convincing to anyone who’s the least bit skeptical.

On the other hand I’m not 100% sure why I give a shit about trying to convince him. I’m a full grown man and have my right to my own opinion. Still I respect the man ALOT and right now I feel like I really let him down. He reffered to it as cheating. For along time I’d laugh at that but coming from my old man it’s a little different. Now I’m not saying he’s right, nor am I saying I am. There’s just as many pro’s of aas use as their is con’s and actually if they weren’t illegal and people where so misinformed about them I’d say that wasn’t true. However, the main thing is I feel like a let my dad down and no man wants to do that.

So what do you boys think? Yeah perhaps I care too much about what he thinks but unless you knew him that would be real hard to say. How’s it work in your families? Does it go unsaid? Do you get shunned? Is it no big deal? I’m curious. [/quote]

I had been asked by my family (and othes of course); but I am clean. However, I’m not on some “clean” pedestal. I don’t begrudge anyone that makes that decision. However, you cannot expect to make a strong case that AAS taken in larger than replacement doses is a wise thing to do - especially, for me, if you don’t earn a living from your body (and many AAS users don’t - its a vanity thing).

The foregoing statement by me is a slippery slope indeed - b/c why even bother to get bigger at all knowing that long term - its NOT good for your health. To me, I wonder why we do this…what are the real reasons - if you’re not earning a living doing this, getting big, competing, modeling, acting, playing a professional sport…I ask why get that much bigger. I came into PL quite by accident after a basketball career…went from at the time, 220 to my present 275. Could I have not competed at 220? Why do I need to be 275? The answer is - I DON’T.

The other point is, there is NO MONEY in PL. I work for a living…I don’t care who the last world record holder is in whatever triple ply org he lifted in…he can’t pay my bills on his PL career. Nuff said.

So, where I’m going with all this is that I am assuming I’m older than you - I’m 41 and assure you that although I’m quite liberal on the subject of AAS, I find myself wondering what your father must be wondering…WHY? For what purpose. Why risk the downside? Are you making money from this? Do you need AAS to continue making that money? I honestly think that is the core issue - notwithstanding some misconceptions he might have in general.

My two cents - maybe a unique perspective as I, like Dave Tate was, contemplating my long term mortality at this age and size. I don’t play a professional sport any longer - heck, I don’t even do much more personal protection work and to be honest, you need not be hyooooge even for that. Fact is, if I’m perfectly honest with myself, there is NO reason to be this size other than EGO.

One other thing; the recent study I saw on AAS and homocystein (sp?) would concern me. But yes, in general, I agree the risks are overstated, but then again, we don’t know all the risk. And then again, I’m not really talking about health and AAS as I am health and getting hyoooge for no reason.

I know, not much of an answer to your Q but thought I’d add some insight from someone on the be big “treadmill” to nowhere. Good luck.

Parents almost always look at their children as a fresh start, and hope they can keep them away from mistakes and pitfalls that have befallen them and the people they’ve seen around them. Parents are never going to smile about steroids, period. Not with their current image. As far as this part goes:

Like I believe Dan Duchaine once said or maybe it was Bill Philips “Why is it that if I wanted to go to a doctor, have him pump me full of estrogen, give me breast implants and turn my penis into a vagina most people would call it a life choice. On the other hand if I want bigger muscles and am interested in using AAS I’m looked down upon.”

It’s ok to be a freak as long as you are a weak freak. Estrogen and turning into a woman makes a man into a joke. No one is threatened by that. Steroids on the other hand are threatening to people because they essentially amplify masculinity. People are competitive animals, make no mistake… regardless of whether or not they have any business being so. No one wants to be made to look like or feel like more of a pussy because he is standing next to a steroid user. Solution? Bash and condem steroids.

My dad was a professional horse trainer, he knows more about performance enhancing drugs than anyone i know.

He is not 50+ and interested in HRT.

I think being upfront about it helps with its reputation. First thing naysayers ask is if its so good for you then why do you hide it.

I love and respect my Dad more now then I ever did when I was younger. He fortunately uses weights and does cardio to keep himself in shape and we often discuss training methods, nutrition methods, and supplementation.

We often disagree heavily when discussing these areas He always tells me you are big enough look at your arms and upper body you need to cut down and get lean. That’s his whole reason for working out to slice any bodyfat off his frame that he can.

He’s in great shape himself for his goals and I have to realize he doesn’t understand the goals I have that we are looking at two different paths. I keep it there so we don’t get into a hellacious argument.

Take care,

D

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
WideGuy wrote:
Well my dad was waiting on parts for his juicer that broke a long while back and accidentally opened a box of terumo’s. Now, before anyone gives me the whole “Oh you still live with your parents shit” Yup I do. We get along well, we work well as a family and we’re all fine with it. I did just graduate last semester and have work lined up ect. ect. so let’s get back to the topic.

I “kinda” figured that with some of the conversations and the knowledge I have of AAS ergogenic aids and various supplements he already knew what was up. However, I suppose like most things that are frowned upon by society parents no matter what age you are want to think “not my kids”. So he went on to say that everything he had read on it was negative. It causes heart disease, cancer, shrinks your nuts, it’s cheating, and the one that we’ve all played with in our minds “once you cross from lifting weights, eating right, and supplementing to sticking needles in your body you’ve crossed over”.

Now mind you he’s not the typical american and reads quite a bit. He’s mainly into the work of Dr. Weil and a while I’m drawing a blank quite a few other Dr.'s who’s main focus of work is what I guess you would consider life extension? I’ve read a bit of Weil’s work and looked over some of the other publications he’s read. In regaurds to aas there is very little if anything said at all. So the rest of his info as he’s admitted comes from the sources everyone else gets their info. Ie. the media and the occasional documentary/special on the topic.

I brought up the Real Sports Documentary on AAS and ironically he said that the Dr. on their said that aas cause all sorts of health problems ie. high blood pressure, heart disease, kidney failure ect. ect. I mentioned the other Dr. who basically said none of that is true and has never been proven. His responce was something along the lines of “Well it’s just a matter of what Dr. you want to listen to”. I can’t really argue that… can I? Anyway I tried to point out things like the fact that I check my cholesterol levels regularly, don’t drink or smoke, monitor my blood pressure, never abuse orals. Honestly I think that might have changed his view a bit or he might just know I’m not going to change my mind :slight_smile:

We sorta drifted away from the topic and started talking about how bad NSAID’s are for your body. I related that back into the subject and mentioned what night of binge drinking does to your body ect. Overall I think I might have gotten through a little bit? I mean he wasn’t flipping out and to be honest the man has a bit of a temper at times LOL but I love him. Part of me want’s to pull up a few posts on the topic for example T and your ticker came to mind. BUT this is Testosteron magazine and reading an article on AAS on a magazine called testosterone probaly won’t be to convincing to anyone who’s the least bit skeptical.

On the other hand I’m not 100% sure why I give a shit about trying to convince him. I’m a full grown man and have my right to my own opinion. Still I respect the man ALOT and right now I feel like I really let him down. He reffered to it as cheating. For along time I’d laugh at that but coming from my old man it’s a little different. Now I’m not saying he’s right, nor am I saying I am. There’s just as many pro’s of aas use as their is con’s and actually if they weren’t illegal and people where so misinformed about them I’d say that wasn’t true. However, the main thing is I feel like a let my dad down and no man wants to do that.

So what do you boys think? Yeah perhaps I care too much about what he thinks but unless you knew him that would be real hard to say. How’s it work in your families? Does it go unsaid? Do you get shunned? Is it no big deal? I’m curious.

I had been asked by my family (and othes of course); but I am clean. However, I’m not on some “clean” pedestal. I don’t begrudge anyone that makes that decision. However, you cannot expect to make a strong case that AAS taken in larger than replacement doses is a wise thing to do - especially, for me, if you don’t earn a living from your body (and many AAS users don’t - its a vanity thing).

The foregoing statement by me is a slippery slope indeed - b/c why even bother to get bigger at all knowing that long term - its NOT good for your health. To me, I wonder why we do this…what are the real reasons - if you’re not earning a living doing this, getting big, competing, modeling, acting, playing a professional sport…I ask why get that much bigger. I came into PL quite by accident after a basketball career…went from at the time, 220 to my present 275. Could I have not competed at 220? Why do I need to be 275? The answer is - I DON’T.

The other point is, there is NO MONEY in PL. I work for a living…I don’t care who the last world record holder is in whatever triple ply org he lifted in…he can’t pay my bills on his PL career. Nuff said.

So, where I’m going with all this is that I am assuming I’m older than you - I’m 41 and assure you that although I’m quite liberal on the subject of AAS, I find myself wondering what your father must be wondering…WHY? For what purpose. Why risk the downside? Are you making money from this? Do you need AAS to continue making that money? I honestly think that is the core issue - notwithstanding some misconceptions he might have in general.

My two cents - maybe a unique perspective as I, like Dave Tate was, contemplating my long term mortality at this age and size. I don’t play a professional sport any longer - heck, I don’t even do much more personal protection work and to be honest, you need not be hyooooge even for that. Fact is, if I’m perfectly honest with myself, there is NO reason to be this size other than EGO.

One other thing; the recent study I saw on AAS and homocystein (sp?) would concern me. But yes, in general, I agree the risks are overstated, but then again, we don’t know all the risk. And then again, I’m not really talking about health and AAS as I am health and getting hyoooge for no reason.

I know, not much of an answer to your Q but thought I’d add some insight from someone on the be big “treadmill” to nowhere. Good luck.
[/quote]

I’m in 100% agreement with BodyGuard. My father asked me why and asked the same questions Bodyguard is now asking and when I was honest with myself, I could not come up with a good enough answer to justify what I was doing.

If anyone is worried what to say about seizure letters, I would say “I ordered some supplments overseas and it seems one of the ingredients was banned”.

It’s pretty rare I venture over here into the “Darkside” since I’ve never used AAS and have no plans to… BUT, this is really one of the most interesting threads Iv’e read in a while. Thanks, wideguy.

[quote]tomcrangy wrote:
TheBodyGuard wrote:
WideGuy wrote:
Well my dad was waiting on parts for his juicer that broke a long while back and accidentally opened a box of terumo’s. Now, before anyone gives me the whole “Oh you still live with your parents shit” Yup I do. We get along well, we work well as a family and we’re all fine with it. I did just graduate last semester and have work lined up ect. ect. so let’s get back to the topic.

I “kinda” figured that with some of the conversations and the knowledge I have of AAS ergogenic aids and various supplements he already knew what was up. However, I suppose like most things that are frowned upon by society parents no matter what age you are want to think “not my kids”. So he went on to say that everything he had read on it was negative. It causes heart disease, cancer, shrinks your nuts, it’s cheating, and the one that we’ve all played with in our minds “once you cross from lifting weights, eating right, and supplementing to sticking needles in your body you’ve crossed over”.

Now mind you he’s not the typical american and reads quite a bit. He’s mainly into the work of Dr. Weil and a while I’m drawing a blank quite a few other Dr.'s who’s main focus of work is what I guess you would consider life extension? I’ve read a bit of Weil’s work and looked over some of the other publications he’s read. In regaurds to aas there is very little if anything said at all. So the rest of his info as he’s admitted comes from the sources everyone else gets their info. Ie. the media and the occasional documentary/special on the topic.

I brought up the Real Sports Documentary on AAS and ironically he said that the Dr. on their said that aas cause all sorts of health problems ie. high blood pressure, heart disease, kidney failure ect. ect. I mentioned the other Dr. who basically said none of that is true and has never been proven. His responce was something along the lines of “Well it’s just a matter of what Dr. you want to listen to”. I can’t really argue that… can I? Anyway I tried to point out things like the fact that I check my cholesterol levels regularly, don’t drink or smoke, monitor my blood pressure, never abuse orals. Honestly I think that might have changed his view a bit or he might just know I’m not going to change my mind :slight_smile:

We sorta drifted away from the topic and started talking about how bad NSAID’s are for your body. I related that back into the subject and mentioned what night of binge drinking does to your body ect. Overall I think I might have gotten through a little bit? I mean he wasn’t flipping out and to be honest the man has a bit of a temper at times LOL but I love him. Part of me want’s to pull up a few posts on the topic for example T and your ticker came to mind. BUT this is Testosteron magazine and reading an article on AAS on a magazine called testosterone probaly won’t be to convincing to anyone who’s the least bit skeptical.

On the other hand I’m not 100% sure why I give a shit about trying to convince him. I’m a full grown man and have my right to my own opinion. Still I respect the man ALOT and right now I feel like I really let him down. He reffered to it as cheating. For along time I’d laugh at that but coming from my old man it’s a little different. Now I’m not saying he’s right, nor am I saying I am. There’s just as many pro’s of aas use as their is con’s and actually if they weren’t illegal and people where so misinformed about them I’d say that wasn’t true. However, the main thing is I feel like a let my dad down and no man wants to do that.

So what do you boys think? Yeah perhaps I care too much about what he thinks but unless you knew him that would be real hard to say. How’s it work in your families? Does it go unsaid? Do you get shunned? Is it no big deal? I’m curious.

I had been asked by my family (and othes of course); but I am clean. However, I’m not on some “clean” pedestal. I don’t begrudge anyone that makes that decision. However, you cannot expect to make a strong case that AAS taken in larger than replacement doses is a wise thing to do - especially, for me, if you don’t earn a living from your body (and many AAS users don’t - its a vanity thing).

The foregoing statement by me is a slippery slope indeed - b/c why even bother to get bigger at all knowing that long term - its NOT good for your health. To me, I wonder why we do this…what are the real reasons - if you’re not earning a living doing this, getting big, competing, modeling, acting, playing a professional sport…I ask why get that much bigger. I came into PL quite by accident after a basketball career…went from at the time, 220 to my present 275. Could I have not competed at 220? Why do I need to be 275? The answer is - I DON’T.

The other point is, there is NO MONEY in PL. I work for a living…I don’t care who the last world record holder is in whatever triple ply org he lifted in…he can’t pay my bills on his PL career. Nuff said.

So, where I’m going with all this is that I am assuming I’m older than you - I’m 41 and assure you that although I’m quite liberal on the subject of AAS, I find myself wondering what your father must be wondering…WHY? For what purpose. Why risk the downside? Are you making money from this? Do you need AAS to continue making that money? I honestly think that is the core issue - notwithstanding some misconceptions he might have in general.

My two cents - maybe a unique perspective as I, like Dave Tate was, contemplating my long term mortality at this age and size. I don’t play a professional sport any longer - heck, I don’t even do much more personal protection work and to be honest, you need not be hyooooge even for that. Fact is, if I’m perfectly honest with myself, there is NO reason to be this size other than EGO.

One other thing; the recent study I saw on AAS and homocystein (sp?) would concern me. But yes, in general, I agree the risks are overstated, but then again, we don’t know all the risk. And then again, I’m not really talking about health and AAS as I am health and getting hyoooge for no reason.

I know, not much of an answer to your Q but thought I’d add some insight from someone on the be big “treadmill” to nowhere. Good luck.

I’m in 100% agreement with BodyGuard. My father asked me why and asked the same questions Bodyguard is now asking and when I was honest with myself, I could not come up with a good enough answer to justify what I was doing.[/quote]

I disagree. while muscular hypertrophy is often the number one reason people use aas there is a growing number of individuals who use aas to improve quality of life. I believe that in conjunction with a healthy lifestyle there are many physiological and psycological benefits to aas.

And to be completely honest if in the future we do discover that steroids do increase the risk of cardiovascular diseases, I would still rather live till 70 feeling phenominal than live till 80 feeling like a slug. Why do we take any risks in life? It’s because there is no point in living unless you feel alive.

[quote]T1gNaL1 wrote:
…I would still rather live till 70 feeling phenomenal than live till 80 feeling like a slug. [/quote]

I may have said this exact thing on Friday night. I was at a dinner event (through the girlfriend’s work) and was seated across the table from a guy who is a brilliant engineer but is into radical life extension stuff. He eats very little food and a miniscule amount of protein, is a vegetarian, and only gets exercise from an occasional bike ride.

He asked me why I was eating so much (when I told him that this was one of 6 meals for the day he turned a bit pale) and I ended up saying something about how I’d rather live a shorter but more intense and enjoyable life than live a long time without what I think are the pleasures worth having. Glad to see someone else feels this way.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Personally, I think you all say that crap b/c you’re young. I want to hear you say that when you’re 50. And by the way, my post specifically said that I was questioning “beyond replacement doses”…I was talking about getting “hyooge”.

Fact is, you won’t be around very long at all to enjoy your children or grandchildren…unless you know of a bunch of 270lb 65 and up year olds - but I might not get out alot…I don’t see many.

These last three posts are a classic example of someone not reading and comprehending the entirety of someone’s post. That aside, I want to see all that die younger bravado when you have children or grandchildren.

I REPEAT - I was not referring to REPLACEMENT doses of AAS…and let’s stop jerking each other off…this site aint about such practices…this is a BB and athletic performance site…most folks here, including you guys, are trying to get big. And if you aint making a living from being big (or even competing)…you need to ask yourself why are you trying to get so large?

Anyway, I’m still big, probably much bigger than any of you…so I’m not casting any stones your way. But the die young bravado is laughable and you’re really just engaging in self-bargaining type behavior.

Another thing just dawned on me…I know plenty of AAS users that won’t exceed 220lbs even if they step on the scale with a 20lb weight. My post was addressed in general to the “big boys”…not the guys that use and still won’t be big b/c your genetics are shitty.

I have to disagree Bodyguard. I’m 45 this fall and have not taken the plunge (pun intended) only because I’ve been seriously training for only 5 years and want to exhaust my natural potential before I resort to chemical enhancements.

Even at my age I’m still adding mass and strength but I can clearly sense the point of diminishing returns approaching. I feel like a fool for starting so late and I want to turn back the clock a bit. Ego? Sure, a little, but mostly it is the desire to excel physically that drives my decision.

One can live a longer life cloistered in a lead-lined box nibbling rice cakes and drinking distilled water but is that really living? I want to be able to bounce my little ones around and toss them on my shoulders. If they’re the ones bouncing and tossing me it just wouldn’t be the same. I certainly respect your points though. They make sense for the masses (pun un-intended).

[quote]Kruiser wrote:
I have to disagree Bodyguard. I’m 45 this fall and have not taken the plunge (pun intended) only because I’ve been seriously training for only 5 years and want to exhaust my natural potential before I resort to chemical enhancements.

Even at my age I’m still adding mass and strength but I can clearly sense the point of diminishing returns approaching. I feel like a fool for starting so late and I want to turn back the clock a bit. Ego? Sure, a little, but mostly it is the desire to excel physically that drives my decision.

One can live a longer life cloistered in a lead-lined box nibbling rice cakes and drinking distilled water but is that really living? I want to be able to bounce my little ones around and toss them on my shoulders. If they’re the ones bouncing and tossing me it just wouldn’t be the same. I certainly respect your points though. They make sense for the masses (pun un-intended).[/quote]

Dude, no disrespect, but ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? Bro, you’re 210 now. Do you plan on going up to 275? (if you can get there?) Do you plan on starting AAS at 45 once your body “matures” since you’re a newbie. And by the way, your post is full of contradictions…you want to bounce and toss your little ones…so to do that, let’s see, at your age, you’re going to INCREASE your weight? What am I missing here and WHY am I even engaging you?

I don’t mean to start a pissing contest, but do you even have a point? Here’s the bottom line - you’ll be LUCKY to get to 220 and if you do, big deal - the post wasn’t intended to you. It was intended to those on a continual quest to add some serious mass by means of AAS. Not someone looking to use a replacement dose…not someone competing or earning a living with their body.

If you sincerely want to bounce and toss your little ones, and you intend to put on appreciable mass and use supraphysiological doses of AAS to do it over the long term, I’ll state here that you may bounce your little ones, but its unlikely you’re going to bounce their little ones.

But why am I arguing? You’re 210 now and clean…but you disagree with me. Talk to me when you’re not clean and 275 or so. My post had an intended audience and with all DUE RESPECT, it wasn’t you or anyone else floating around 200. You, and they, are not big. And frankly, to you and the rest at 6.0 and better or thereabouts who haven’t even exceeded 220 after years of training and AAS - you’re in the wrong pursuit.

This is bound to be an unpopluar opinion but what kind of excuse can you possibly make? If i was your dad i would say if you are so grown up why is it that you are still living under my roof? And regardless of his take on steroids risking the safety of your parents by having even needles shipped to the house proves to me that you are not “all grown up”.

Get a career, spend the money you spend on juice getting a place to live and some responsibility and then figure out if you still want to juice and do what you want. I say as long as it is his roof its his rules. People always want to know what is an acceptable age to start juicing, i would say one sure sign would be that you can support yourself at least for God’s sake.

Personally, I feel no obligation to justify shit to anyone on the internet. If you don’t want to use AAS, good for you. But don’t wear that shit around like its a fucking medal.

Tens of thousands of children die every fucking day around the world because they have no food and water. Who cries for these children? NO-ONE. They are forgotten before they even die.

Barry Bonds on the other hand deserves 3 years of non-stop media attention because he jabbed himself with needles. This kinda puts things into prespective and makes people realize how fucked up and ass backward America really is.

Who really gives a shit what I stick into my body whether it’s for increased sex drive or a dream of being Mr.Olympia. There are MUCH more needed people out there so please start with them.

Pass this message onto the other 4 billion people who need a fucking wake up call.

Speaking of mis-interpretations, mr. hyoooooge body gordo whos thunderstepping around at 275lbs in his 50’s whos now a fat ass and mistakingly ran jacked up cycles for years through the 70’s,80’s and 90’s sure does have it all figured out on giving advice on why people should not be taking AAS unless they are making a carreer out of it.

You are joking right? Its not the die young bravado, you can go anytime on this earth, young or old, natural causes or not. Not everybody takes gear to get “hyoooge” which you seem to make it out to be. Alot of people do it in moderation, for that extra bit of energy, strength, endurance and feeling of well being.

If a doctor told their patients they could prescribe a drug that had all these qualities with certain minimal side affects I gurantee that these patients would be jumping all over it if they never knew what it was, but oh my god if they knew it was steroids oh thats bad. Better give them prozac instead or the magic purple pill. Point is all drugs have side affects including EVERY single prescribed drug out there!

Why dont they outlaw sugar? Sugar is responsible for more deaths in one year due to health related affects than steroids has been for the past 50 years. Open your eyes, you may see something, listen you may learn something. If wideguy was my son and I caught him with needles, I would pray to god it wasnt for something much worse. Once I found out it was for juice, Before condenming him I would listen to him.

You cant control people, people want to experience life and thats what they are going to do. People want “LIFE EXPERIENCE” for without that, why live? People are generally good and want to do the right thing, Their are more important things you could be comdeming.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Personally, I think you all say that crap b/c you’re young. I want to hear you say that when you’re 50. And by the way, my post specifically said that I was questioning “beyond replacement doses”…I was talking about getting “hyooge”.

Fact is, you won’t be around very long at all to enjoy your children or grandchildren…unless you know of a bunch of 270lb 65 and up year olds - but I might not get out alot…I don’t see many.

These last three posts are a classic example of someone not reading and comprehending the entirety of someone’s post. That aside, I want to see all that die younger bravado when you have children or grandchildren.

I REPEAT - I was not referring to REPLACEMENT doses of AAS…and let’s stop jerking each other off…this site aint about such practices…this is a BB and athletic performance site…most folks here, including you guys, are trying to get big. And if you aint making a living from being big (or even competing)…you need to ask yourself why are you trying to get so large?

Anyway, I’m still big, probably much bigger than any of you…so I’m not casting any stones your way. But the die young bravado is laughable and you’re really just engaging in self-bargaining type behavior.

Another thing just dawned on me…I know plenty of AAS users that won’t exceed 220lbs even if they step on the scale with a 20lb weight. My post was addressed in general to the “big boys”…not the guys that use and still won’t be big b/c your genetics are shitty.

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