The Tale of the Slave

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I personally think the analogy is borderline nonsense ,A society that offers services require a need to generate payment for the services offered. I think as long as the slaves have the right to move , they could not be considered slaves. I wonder how many of these so called slaves use the services ?[/quote]

So you are not a slave if you can choose your plantation?

Interesting.

And yes, they use them, more so than they would if they had to pay for it themselves, because when people get to keep their money it makes sense to prioritize, when you have already taken it, it makes sense to take as much as possible back, whether you would have bought it yourself or not.

[/quote]

You do not need a plantation, you could choose to be homeless or move to Somalia or Afghanistan that way you would have to pay taxes, You could probably move out to the middle of no where America and not pay any taxes[/quote]

So if I decide not to be productive at all, they cannot get at me?

That us very Randian of you.

Oh, and by the way, would I then enjoy full possession of my own body, including drug use and so on?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I personally think the analogy is borderline nonsense ,A society that offers services require a need to generate payment for the services offered. I think as long as the slaves have the right to move , they could not be considered slaves. I wonder how many of these so called slaves use the services ?[/quote]

So you are not a slave if you can choose your plantation?

Interesting.

And yes, they use them, more so than they would if they had to pay for it themselves, because when people get to keep their money it makes sense to prioritize, when you have already taken it, it makes sense to take as much as possible back, whether you would have bought it yourself or not.

[/quote]

You do not need a plantation, you could choose to be homeless or move to Somalia or Afghanistan that way you would have to pay taxes, You could probably move out to the middle of no where America and not pay any taxes[/quote]

So if I decide not to be productive at all, they cannot get at me?

That us very Randian of you.

Oh, and by the way, would I then enjoy full possession of my own body, including drug use and so on?

[/quote]

You could be productive , grow your own food, procure your own water, generate your own power, you could build your own roads on your own property

Tocqueville did a better job than that in Democracy in America.
Yes democracy is tyranny of the majority, but nowadays it isn’t even the case anymore. Today’s democracy is pure financial and corporate totalitarism.

How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

Because you have no say in your own life, unless the other 10000 are exactly tied.

True, they are not free either, hence slaves.

However, the fact that you are no more or no less free than your fellow beasts of burden may be fair, it may be equal, but it does not make you free.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

Because you have no say in your own life, unless the other 10000 are exactly tied.

True, they are not free either, hence slaves.

However, the fact that you are no more or no less free than your fellow beasts of burden may be fair, it may be equal, but it does not make you free.
[/quote]

And if every “slave” could be voted into “master” status? What does that make them then?

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

Because you have no say in your own life, unless the other 10000 are exactly tied.

True, they are not free either, hence slaves.

However, the fact that you are no more or no less free than your fellow beasts of burden may be fair, it may be equal, but it does not make you free.
[/quote]

And if every “slave” could be voted into “master” status? What does that make them then?[/quote]

Until he is one, what do you think he is?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

Because you have no say in your own life, unless the other 10000 are exactly tied.

True, they are not free either, hence slaves.

However, the fact that you are no more or no less free than your fellow beasts of burden may be fair, it may be equal, but it does not make you free.
[/quote]

And if every “slave” could be voted into “master” status? What does that make them then?[/quote]

Until he is one, what do you think he is?

[/quote]

A citizen?

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

Because you have no say in your own life, unless the other 10000 are exactly tied.

True, they are not free either, hence slaves.

However, the fact that you are no more or no less free than your fellow beasts of burden may be fair, it may be equal, but it does not make you free.
[/quote]

And if every “slave” could be voted into “master” status? What does that make them then?[/quote]

Until he is one, what do you think he is?

[/quote]

A citizen?[/quote]

Ah, euphemisms, they make it all so much better, dont they?

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If we are free to choose our own end desire then we are free; however, lacking the means to attain that end desire does not make us slaves.

[/quote]

Why don’t you think it makes you a slave?

Consider the hypothetical: You have no money and no assets but require food. Somebody will trade you food and shelter in exchange for owning your labor for 168 hours a week. And it is a 10 year contract.

Are you a slave in this situation or not? What if your only other option other than accepting the contract is to starve to death? Then I would say you are simply a slave with no master.

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If we are free to choose our own end desire then we are free; however, lacking the means to attain that end desire does not make us slaves.

[/quote]

Why don’t you think it makes you a slave?

Consider the hypothetical: You have no money and no assets but require food. Somebody will trade you food and shelter in exchange for owning your labor for 168 hours a week. And it is a 10 year contract.

Are you a slave in this situation or not? What if your only other option other than accepting the contract is to starve to death? Then I would say you are simply a slave with no master.[/quote]

Watch out with questions like that. You’ll be told the person offering you the job “created a job for you!” and its “your own damn fault for not making it on your own.”

Also, companies deserve praise for running sweatshops.

But democracy is slavery.

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Watch out with questions like that. You’ll be told the person offering you the job “created a job for you!” and its “your own damn fault for not making it on your own.”

Also, companies deserve praise for running sweatshops.

But democracy is slavery.[/quote]

Democracy is a form of slavery. I work ~15 hours/week to support others via taxes. Another ~10 hours to support essential services like schooling, police, fire etc. I am told I cannot do plenty of things which would harm nobody. But my life is pretty fucking good.

My issue is orion wants to turn one form of slavery into another and trying to hoodwink people that his version will be more free.

I think we will only be truly free from slavery when we have perfected robots that can provide all our mundane necessities for virtually nothing and virtual reality so that the physical items become meaningless.

Democracy is just a pretty decent master. A better one than libertarianism.

[quote]phaethon wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Watch out with questions like that. You’ll be told the person offering you the job “created a job for you!” and its “your own damn fault for not making it on your own.”

Also, companies deserve praise for running sweatshops.

But democracy is slavery.[/quote]

Democracy is a form of slavery. I work ~15 hours/week to support others via taxes. Another ~10 hours to support essential services like schooling, police, fire etc. I am told I cannot do plenty of things which would harm nobody. But my life is pretty fucking good.

My issue is orion wants to turn one form of slavery into another and trying to hoodwink people that his version will be more free.

I think we will only be truly free from slavery when we have perfected robots that can provide all our mundane necessities for virtually nothing and virtual reality so that the physical items become meaningless.

Democracy is just a pretty decent master. A better one than libertarianism.[/quote]

Nonsense.

You equate the need to be productive in order to survive which you can take up with God, fate or the universe and which you share with every other living thing with men with guns that force you to do their bidding.

I am also pretty tired that people make up the most absurd scenarios to discredit libertarianism while not facing up to the very real problems their little scheme is causing right now.

So lets see, we have two wars with a few hundred thousand if not millions dead, more people in jail than in any other nation, most for non violent crimes, total surveillance of bank accounts and electronic communication, an executive branch that is more or less above the law and special interest groups that blatantly enrich themselves at the publics expense BUT it is all worth it because libertarianism will result in cannibalism.

Right.

So, why did almost none of all these dreaded consequences happen when the US federal government used a whopping total of 2-3% GDP?

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

we are kinda bumping up against the NONSENSE aspect

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
How does number 9 apply to democracy when each and every “slave” is also one of the 10,000 masters, relative to every other “slave”?[/quote]

we are kinda bumping up against the NONSENSE aspect [/quote]

Yes, but it would not be fair to claim that you lose every time when you are not really trying to win, wouldnt it?

“No one is more hopelessly enslaved than the person who falsely believes he is free.”
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

But, if it makes your chains feel lighter when you collectively choose to ignore them, more power to you.

A man cannot be ruled and at the same time be free. It is a contradiction.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
A man cannot be ruled and at the same time be free. It is a contradiction.[/quote]

The only way to be free is move away from every one or thing that would influence o to any degree.

I am not sure freedom is possible, if you to move away from all people , you would still have to comply with laws of nature

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am not sure freedom is possible, if you to move away from all people , you would still have to comply with laws of nature[/quote]

So are you suggesting that there are no “laws of nature” to contend with now? Interesting.

Freedom only means anything with respect to coercion and violence. I.e., in the absence of coercion and violence we are free.