T Nation

The Tactical Life


#1614

Thought for the day: Another senseless killing by an active shooter. You died a hero , brother, that is all any of us could ask for. For the rest of the first responders out there, train, brothers, you time in the box is coming. I recently read on PoliceOne that an officer is dying every 58 hours. Train, do everything you can to go home to your family.

This is probably an inappropriate statement at this time, but, I have read numerous accounts this morning that people were running, hiding, crying in the bathrooms, etc. This makes my blood boil, especially since this is the communist state of California, where the basic human right of self defense is taken from you, and you are left crying and hiding instead of fighting and engaging the active shooter. fuck. The call came in at 23:20 and they arrived at 23:26. That is a remarkable response time in an urban area. But that’s 6 minutes where SOMEONE could have stepped up and tried to kill the motherfucker. but no, its the communist state of California, where just like Britain, values their precious gun control laws over human lives.

hero

RIP in peace brother, you gave 29 fucking years to doing an impossible job to protect people who do not really give a fuck.

"Helus, a 29-year veteran of the sheriff’s department, was planning to retire next year. Dean said he died “a hero.”


#1615

A 21 year old woman just interviewed said, Dad was military and had taught her what to do in such an event.

She had a plan, apparently cased location, made escape, and lived to give interview.
Today is the day for you to take ownership for the security of you and yours.

RIP to Blue who ran towards the danger and 11 innocents.


#1616

Rest in Peace Brother. We’ve got it from here.


#1617

Pretty low to use this hero officers death as an excuse to shit on the state he loved and protected for 29 years.

Agreed it’s sad no one stepped up (that we know of) to try and confront the guy during the few times he was reloading. Throw some liquor bottles or something. Anyword on what type of gun was used?


#1618

Some media reports a 45 cal Glock with hi cap mags. I tend not to put much faith in such details in early reports.


#1619

Reportedly a glock .45 with an extended mag, as per the news, for what that’s worth. No word if there were any reloads.


#1620

I don’t need an event like this to shit on California’s gun laws and I don’t think Idaho does either.

Or something…

Maybe something like shoot the motherfucker, which is how these get stopped when they do get stopped? Of course, California and many other jurisdictions go to great lengths to ensure that this is not an option. Luckily I live in a state that makes it as easy as possible for law-abiding citizens to carry and the exceedingly low violent crime statistics in Maine speak volumes.

I can’t say that I’d stop anything and maybe I’d have been the first one shot, but if a shooter rolled up to the bar I was bouncing at I would have never been more than 15 feet away from a firearm. That doesn’t guarantee anything but it’s better than being helpless for 6 minutes. I didn’t carry on my person while bouncing but it was never far away. If I wasn’t bouncing and was being a designated driver I can (and do) legally carry inside of bars.

Again, that behavior is not legal in California, and it doesn’t seem to stop anyone from shooting up bars, does it?

Early reports was a .45 handgun with an illegal (in California) extended magazine.


#1621

I ran across a couple of stories indicating that during at least 1 reload, people used chairs to smash windows and climb out.


#1622

I’m glad you like your state. PLENTY of shit could be talked about it too. Probly not the time or place to shit on the state this officer loved and died protecting.


#1623

It’s Idaho’s thread. He can say what he wants to in it. The title is “The Tactical Life”, which seems like an appropriate place to discuss tactical options, or lack thereof, in violent situations.

Feel free to start a “Hide In The Corner” thread, or a “Throw Bottles at the Shooter” thread, if you think that’s more appropriate.


#1624

I hadn’t read that. Well, that’s probably a better use of most people’s time than trying to win a gunfight with a beer bottle. Run, hide, fight in that order is the stock advice in those situations for unarmed civilians.


#1625

Yes, whining about legislation and disrespecting other states and their population is an excellent discussion of tactical options.

Im done as this thread has already been derailed enough IMO.


#1626

No, that was certainly not the intent to “shit” on California. What I was shitting on was the obscene gun laws passed by the elected representatives of the people. You get what you elect. IMHO, self defense is a human right and the laws of your state prevent that in the majority of cases. You live there, your personal defense is your business. In an active shooter situation, I don’t want to be limited to throwing liquor bottles.


#1627

Thought for the day: _Being the first through the door._

Now, since the subject is still fresh, this is NOT criticism toward any first responder to the Thousand Oak shooting. I am in the states for mandatory training. Yesterday, I was with agents from various agencies and the topic of the shooting came up, listening and observing, I came to the conclusion that I needed the unit I work with in Afghanistan if shit broke bad here. Too many years behind a cushy assignment, too many beers, too many believing their own bullshit on how good they are. Too many thinking that being a 19 year old Marine transfers to a 35-45 year old body.

responder

From PatMac:

Members of Law Enforcement and the military have a job to protect and serve others. At times, they need to think about themselves and their team mates as well. Combat effectiveness is not limited to gun skills. Being physically fit is non-negotiable in the tactical arena. We are all built differently and have accrued miles of varying numbers.

Some of us have been broken and repaired, battered and bruised through an abusive work style or ageism. Some LEOs work horrible shifts and can’t muster the motivation to better themselves physically. If you are strapping forty pounds of lightweight shit onto an already gelatinous mess of cottage cheese, you are not only less effective in the field but are a detriment and a liability to your teammates and to those who you need to protect. Make a functional PT program part of your normal. Much can be achieved in thirty minutes daily to ensure you can leap a five foot wall in full kit, run 400 meters and body slam a douche nugget fleeing from a crime scene.


#1628

Moving away from active shooter for a second, I am constantly amazed at watching recordings of officers grappling with suspects, often getting the worst of it.

Having bounced in a couple of rowdy bars, l get that it is difficult to contain unwilling malcontents, when striking isn’t typically the first option.

All to say - there is a great benefit in learning/training spacing, footwork, upright grappling, reading body language. Maintaining fitness is important, and using a bit of wisdom to practice countering the opponent is also valuable.

Afterall, there is always someone faster, stronger, less worn out, drugged up, or just a plain psychopath.


#1629

As a jiu jitsu hobbyist and former part-time dive bar bouncer, I agree. I’ll also point out how hard it is to learn grappling to a point where you’re going to have high-percentage good outcomes against someone who outclasses you physically. You’re talking lots of mat time.

It would be great if all cops had, say, blue belt or higher level of training (or a similar level of wrestling) but that’s years of regular training on top of all the other training they need to perform.

A guy I know teaches combatives at ICE and it seems like a decent curriculum. Lots of overlap with what we do in jiu jitsu class, but it is obviously not the main training priority and I don’t think they get a lot of reps in. Better than nothing though.

We’ve got an FBI agent who comes to my regular class too. Whatever training he got didn’t set him apart from any other moderately athletic 30-something who has stepped on the mat. He’s doing well though. Great guy on and off the mats.


#1630

Face to face grappling would obviously be near the top of bad scenarios. That is why l think spacing etc should be worked.

Maybe some LEOs can comment as to the lack of physical implements that are available, versus 1-4 officers just grabbing on and wrestling down a combatant.
Those rope on a stick devices used by animal control or a taserish device mounted on a pole. I’m not trying to be silly - hand to hand is dangerous and unpredictable.


#1631

How much more difficult is it when you are both trying to take down the bad guy, while also making sure he/she doesn’t get away. In bouncing, you’re always willing to give the guy space and let him scamper off. Cops don’t have that luxury.


#1632

Your point is taken.
I am envisioning suspect taking an offensive run at officer, refusing orders of compliance, and the like.

At the point of physical confrontation, many clips show the officer or jailer overwhelmed. I don’t question their bravery nor willingness, but their skills must be maintained too.


#1633

Two people will always have an easier time controlling a person than one. Putting a person on the ground can be a piece of cake or very, very difficult. It depends on how much training both people have, balance, athleticism, intoxication, will to fight, size, strength, clothing or lack thereof, all kinds of factors.

Not necessarily. Sometimes you want to control someone until the police arrive. They don’t always want scamper off, they sometimes want to fight you or someone else or everyone they see, including the cops when they show up. One raging dickwad I dealt with had a firearm in his car and no interest in leaving whatsoever. He was shit-faced and completely irate at being cut off and he had just lost face by acting tough and getting rag-dolled and pinned to a wall by me. I’m wasn’t letting him scamper off to go get the gun I knew he had.

I can only think of one guy who ever scampered off quietly after getting violent. He sucker-punched a guy right as I was walking outside, saw me and bolted down the street. Fine by me.

I never committed to the ground when bouncing. I did clinch work, russian ties, fireman’s carries, arm-drags to seatbelt grips from behind (to set up the RNC). Try to get behind them.

The most violent I ever got was throwing a couple of dudes across the room, which was a more dramatic effect than I actually intended on. Stopped the fight cold though, and gave me a reputation as being tougher than I really am. None of the regulars were ever non-compliant with me after that.

Violent drunk people have buddies, and going to the ground leaves you vulnerable to those buddies, especially if you’re working alone.

Curious to hear what some of the LEO’s think.