The Systemlord Callout Thread

I’ll showcase a demonstration tommorow, some labs specify methods on their website (in fine print typically)… still large differentiation’s between ref ranges

I agree. I messed around between 100mg to 130mg for like a year and only on about 150mg dailies am I feeling consistently non-shitty. I’m about 7 weeks into this protocol but will give it a full 12 weeks. Might be on the same boat as you and will need 200mg to feel best.

Disagreed, and I’ll post literature tommorow

If you can deconstruct said literature and tell me why it’s flawed I’d be happy to alter my ideology

Think about it… with increased rates of obesity, rampant overprescribing of meds known to interfere with endocrine homeostasis, environmental toxins/systemic pollution… it’s fairly logical to come to a consensus that there’s be some form of deleterious impact

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I thought the obese, unhealthy, etc were supposed to be filtered out of the “normal” ranges anyways?

No, average BMI within these standardised studies is typically about 27-29, so overweight is accepted, whereas obese is not

The initial labcorp study (outdated now) used LEAN young men

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Yes exactly. Current ref ranges of lean, young and unhealthy men are not different to ref ranges from the late 1980s if using the same method.

Coming in late to this one. This type of thread is what makes me wish we had DM / PMs here. A thread calling someone out even if focused on a posters content is going to have some nastiness for the subject of the thread. I wish this could have been handled with DM is what I am saying.

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This is one of the few good studies regarding this topic I’ve seen… and one can clearly see this within the results found… lean, healthy young men without comorbidities had a median TT of 677 ng/dl… that’s perfectly healthy

Tommorow within my response I’ll link a few studies regarding ref ranges that indicate overweight men are certainly included within the measured populace… I’ll also link one study which confirms many labs don’t account for the standardised studies, use ref ranges that have zero clinical significance.

Sure, perhaps the studies do exist (thank you for
linking this one btw… I hadn’t seen it), doesn’t account for the fact that many labs still fail to use this data, doesn’t account for numerous compounding factors present within the ref ranges I currently see… 50ng/dl isn’t normal regardless of methodology used

I’ll also post a detailed answer as to why I disagree with you’re “testosterone causes violent outbursts/roid rage” ideology

Not responding now because it’s 2am here

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Testosterone levels declining within a populace

“We observe a substantial age-independent decline in T that does not appear to be attributable to observed changes in explanatory factors, including health and lifestyle characteristics such as smoking and obesity. The estimated population-level declines are greater in magnitude than the cross-sectional declines in T typically associated with age.”

https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/12/4696/2597312
“significant secular trends in testosterone and SHBG serum levels were observed in age-matched men with lower levels in the more recently born/studied men.”

“In 2008, men had lower serum free testosterone than men of similar age in 1995 (P<0.001)”

“a significant secular trend in testosterone (total and free), SHBG and gonadotrophin levels was observed with lower levels in more recently born age-matched men. Serum testosterone level decreased in men aged 60-69 years from 21.9 nmol/l (men born 1913-1922) to 13.8 nmol/l (men born 1942-1951). These decreases remained significant following adjustment for BMI… Testosterone, SHBG, LH and FSH levels were measured by time-resolved fluoroimmunoassays (DELFIA; Wallac Oy, Turku, Finland) with detection limits 0.23, 0.23 nmol/l, 0.05 and 0.06 IU/l respectively. The intra- and interassay coefficients of variation were <12% for testosterone, 8% for SHBG and 5% for gonadotrophins. All samples were analysed during the same period and mixed in the different assay runs to eliminate any influence of assay variation.”

Granted the method of which is used to measure FT isn’t great, as albumin concentration is estimated… though given testosterone is only weakly bound to albumin one would expect the differentiation to be fairly minimal.

Could you explain why these studies are inherently flawed?

As to showcasing differing labs using the same method of measurement, ref ranges coming out different to that of one another, that’s for another post. I have the flu and my head feels like it’s going to explode

" All reference values were based on a standard statistical model without regard for clinical aspects of hypogonadism. Twenty-three of the 25 lab directors responded that clinically relevant testosterone reference ranges would be preferable to current standards."

Cutoff ranged (upper range) from like 490-1600ng/dl… there is NO method of measurement to my knowledge that could account for OVER a variation between ref ranges of 300% +

That being said, my ideology is open to changing, if you can disprove me (and further rebuttals when I muster up the energy) I’ll be on you’re side… admit perhaps test levels haven’t declined

“Reference ranges often were adapted from the product insert for the analyzer used by the laboratory. Most labs did not validate these reference ranges independently in local population samples. The researchers reviewed the procedural guides from four analyzer manufacturers and found little specific information on the sample populations from which their “normal” ranges were derived.”

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Only a blind man can deny the obvious

Actually I’m interesting in hearing what Johann has to say… we may have differing ideologies, however he is far more qualified than I, thus his opinion if he can debunk all data (and future data in response to this) has more merit than mine.

I disagree with his stigmatisation of guys using gear, I think such a practice is counterproductive within the medical community and keeps use secretive, thus people don’t look for help when they need it. I also believe there is an overlap of anecdote vs scientific research, it took me a while to figure this out. For instance, I got into an argument with Johann regarding the validity of black market test, he stated it was frequently not even test, citing literature demonstrating inconsistencies within products purchased… Sure, with fakes this pertains to perhaps oxandrolone, methenolone, fluoxymesterone… but testosterone is rarely counterfeited… getting a different ester may be possible, but you’re very unlikely to get nothing

https://watermark.silverchair.com/32-3-232.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAm4wggJqBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggJbMIICVwIBADCCAlAGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMSFwGNeIyQZgmDMHyAgEQgIICIRb-uIakx60iSEswylRi4ssHDJuXnM1Jlhl-shuqukra4oUJK-nlXASqeCcPEs9UtB6ti67jZcO-LO5yEY1Anxiiwdrb5wMkqGzSZxIz-Cl_HMG5wjCdRt2mIhyE6hVOBl6soqvieiy3-_BicgIF63F6r-YtXtUh7yW2prP-y6UtUsBRO9JcSINWT4B0PuNNq4DFnJLJq-qGYKLZbB6QA6m5D3uer9qxWZN-wESdltYZv8IBSHeylJn5CKb0HBKIo6Nvh8MZb_6V8IajdrMb4D4VhWjIm08iTyKBhUjcM_Ie2-7gtXbNwUbiu1UaOZPTrcN8gApU824FHFjiITE-Bp0dBAdvpMNijnrLrcOhSHmiB7fF4owvaN6YxzFlEtceQE-sdDdIzS8L_V76Zczkw9PGHmpavg5tVMfa3BjOnAcl1YUrpmMg5drVYgeF9QP6ceaY3rRFilygwLLK0JcOKtEv897V1wstW-bq8cg8T4FaeVdYGm_JfcAgUTPgR3Ki__q4jxHZHiD6VJDx_A4Wh2i3wxcIVMSwR3q_FnAypNyZRmx9Y4b83pTqA4GtWI0n1LrP-VIABSedLMdCSijADjGXSvnKMAv4jwZgXwAPWW9SJTYb_BQVW_V3nWOFV0LjlmQt4qCgSqLH8DG4MdtOv5VGPW3xQFucC6_ow2EB-O36fKxOgzQWC6FOvzIYXXAXJCbv7w2VCIxPeYGGJ9JNkRX5

As one can see within this study, testosterone was never faked (albeit esters weren’t always what one had asked for)… other compounds such as nandrolone decanoate were sometimes sold with test being in the vial… but test is test…

Thank god I’ve got legitimate nandrolone decanoate

I can tell you very exact what is the situation with black market test here in Bulgaria, because I have a friend who is a large player in the market. The test is not fake, it is potent, but the dosing is not as precise, sometimes even stronger than it should be. And the esterification is not correct, also they put too much alcohol to compensate for the lack of enough expensive sterile equipment.

Even though he is a friend of mine and I know he will not screw me Im hesitant to take anything produced by him for no other reason but knowing he cannot reproduce the process of a large medical factory. O the other hand his source is better, but the process is very important for me as well.

And no you will not find this info in studies no everything can be collected in studies :smiley:

Certainly, 200mg prescribed sustanon weekly had me nadir at 500ng/dl by day 6-7… I’ve had vials wherein I take 200mg weekly, clock in at 1500ng/dl! Sus is composed of test prop/phenylprop though, the nadir would be comparatively lower vs test E/C, esp if the test dec hasn’t fully built up yet.

A lab using a high BA content to mask a lack of sterility… find a better lab if you can dude. I’ve found a source that sells independently compounded products direct from the pharmacy… it’s expensive as fuck, the vials are probably synthesised for those who are in legitimate need of it… but it makes it’s way to the BM hence the absurd price… talking about 150/vial. Bloods confirm it’s accurately dosed (clocked in at 1000ng/dl… well very close, like 987 or something like 180-200mg weekly… not nadir, 3.5 days post shot)

I must ask… is this you’re friend or you’re dealer? I don’t deal to friends… or anyone for that matter, and friends that make me pay for X,Y,Z I don’t consider good friends. Say if I’m bringing a six pack to the beach (I don’t really drink anymore… but this is a hypothetical scenario) and one of my friends says “beer me”… I’m not going to say “that’ll be 5$”. Granted there are exceptions, if I have say… a laptop my friend wants, it’s expensive etc I’m not going to give it away for free… there’s a line… I had a “friend” become irritable over two dollars… like… fuck off mate (he makes quite a bit of money too… seemingly a very selfish individual)… Wanted me to BANK TRANSFER him 2$… seriously…

Granted if he’s a steroid dealer on the side… understandable. Were you friends prior to finding this out, or is the friendship based on the transactions between you two.

I met him as a potential dealer but we became closer. He has helped me a lot for some personal stuff and Im not comfortable asking for free stuff and also I respect everybody’s labor, this is how he makes his living after all

Even with my friends I try to be always financially correct

okokokok… trek carefully

I tend to be wary of dealers, some of my friends deal… I don’t approve of such practices at all, it puts the responsibility/burdens of others into their hands… what if a kid dies? Has a psychotic reaction… it’s blood on their hands

I personally disapprove of dealing, but I won’t dump someone as a friend because they do so. Granted if they start becoming involved with unsavoury characters/weapons and violence I’m out…

If you’re willing to put a life in you’re hands pertaining to dealing I believe one’s moral compass may need recalibration… just my opinion though… it’s a catch 22 considering if I buy cannabis, steroids… whatever I’m supporting such behaviour, so I too am at fault

If Im looking for a synthetic I would buy from him, but always I prefer pharmaceutical stuff if possible especially for something long term like test

Can you get Pharm grade test OTC where you live?

Yes, but only sustanon. I get it OTC in the pharmacy, but it is not official OTC :smiley:

I will go to the next country to get the same way enanthate now

Science isnt about an ideology, its about data and the interpretation thereof. This post summarizes my point of view on that topic.

With regard to method variability and ref ranges these are good reads

This was before the T harmonization efforts; differences are mainly due to the different methods used
‘Of the 25 labs, there were 17 and 13 different sets of reference values for total and free testosterone, respectively. The low reference value for total testosterone ranged from 130 to 450 ng/dL (350% difference), and the upper value ranged from 486 to 1,593 ng/ dL (325% difference).’

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2006.00334.x

But there is some improvement