I’m curious to know how it is even remotely possible that the obvious dissemination of sheer lunacy is supported and tolerated in this forum? Has anyone stopped to consider how many naive men will have taken this kind of advice as fact, tried it for themselves, and made themselves significantly worse?
@systemlord, I’ve had my fill. You are either completely ignorant on these topics or are purposely trying to harm others with intent. I need to know which one it is.
You tell guys not to use an AI but tell them to be fearful of estrogen. Please explain this logical contradiction.
You tell men that if they have low SHBG they can’t do TRT. Please explain to the class why you are stating this when it is demonstrably false.
You tell men that their dose is too high, literally all the time, basing it on the fact that you are a 1 in 1000 (maybe one in 10,000??) outlier who can only handle a few mg a day knowing full well that virtually none of the men in this forum are anything like you. Are you purposely trying to cause harm or just ridiculously ignorant?
You are obese and completely riddled with health issues yet you give advice to other men as to how to improve your health. I think the men here have a right to see who they are getting this advice from. Post a photo of yourself, without your face for privacy, to ensure who is providing this health advice.
I will allow others to chime in to add points that I have not. This source of false and harmful information needs to come to a stop for this forum to have even a shred of credibility.
I personally think the credentials thread should have remained a sticky so when people get advice they can easily go back and see at least some info about the person giving it before making a life altering decision. Not sure what the point of the credentials thread was if it’s not a sticky that new people can easily find/access or even know it exists. I’m sure there’s a reason that I’m not aware of but I’d love to know what it is.
I don’t know. It was the idea of @Chris_Colucci , which I took initiative to get started, and WAS a sticky at one point, but has since become unstickied. Chris? Don’t suppose you can chime in here?
Your first instinct is to attack and discredit anyone who disagrees with you, this will ensure you get personality types like yourself and will only hurt your chances of reaching the masses.
I’m trying to convey balance is key, AI’s ruin balance. Excessive levels doesn’t always mean balance and I think a lot of these guys 1000> are using TRT to treat something else amiss and are getting half ass results in the process.
I never said that, I don’t know where you get this crap. Low SHBG does tend to create a lot of free androgens and this can throw off balance if they aren’t dosing frequently enough. Sometimes these large cypionate injections can throw androgen balance out of whack as hormones levels peak which is why you’ll hear comments of anxiety at these times.
I’m not the only one that needs balance, when I see others having problems at the top end of the ranges, this tells me that are unbalance if they don’t feel good with 4-5 times higher levels. If a guy doesn’t feel better with 4-5 times and in some cases 10x more testosterone, there must be an imbalance.
I’m doing much better now, got things under control. Things are progressing very fast and having a fasting glucose of 101 one week after starting TRT where a week before glucose management was non-existent.
You took that statement completely out of context, you don’t want SHBG anywhere close to zero because it is needed. I never said low SHBG men can’t do TRT, I said you can’t play the TRT game without it.
SHBG is like the poker dealer, SHBG hands out all the cards.
Excessive levels can easily be detected by listening to the person describe the symptoms, that’s what directs my comments. It’s no always 100% because they could have an iron deficiency and the symptoms mimic other things, you could say the fatigue is because levels aren’t high enough and both of us are wrong.
A lot of the guys who come here have labs that are wholly inadequate and we don’t always have enough info to go on and sometime it’s on a hunch. Men come here for opinions and that’s what they get. If they want an opinion of a doctor, they know where to go.
Your idea of excessive levels are, more often than not, insufficient androgens to resolve symptoms. How do I know? The number of men who get discouraged who contact me, get levels up, and suddenly their symptoms are finally gone.
I have not found a SINGLE THREAD, where you convinced someone at the high end of the range, to lower their dose and they got better. Not ONE. Are you ever conscious of this?
You continue to bring up estradiol and estradiol related symptoms when I am literally drowning you in evidence that you insist on ignoring. You are instilling fear in men regarding estrogen levels or testosterone levels that are at the top of the range or their shbg and the number of other issues which just over complicates matters by a hundred fold.
I scour this forum looking for people who have thanked you for fixing their issues and continue to come up short. My inbox is so loaded right now that I’m about 2 weeks behind on replying to people. People in this forum continue to comment under the things you say demonstrating how they are demonstrably false yet you continue to say them.
You act like there are no symptoms whatsoever for excessive testosterone and estrogen, we know they are symptoms of both low testosterone and low estrogen, on this I know we agree, then the opposite must be true. “Balance”.
You would have me believe excessively high testosterone and estrogen (supraphysiological) is perfectly alright, while for some men it is, but we know testosterone and estrogen affects other hormones and can throw them out of balance.
I believe these chemicals in the environment are fucking with hormone balance in men and TRT can’t always fix it, doctors are scientists have already published articles on these subjects.
It’s like, new guys show up… Guys like @dextermorgan, @highpull, @ncsugrad2002, @unreal24278 go in to help but, instead, have to first explain why what you’re saying is false. Do you realize how tiring this becomes? It’s literally in every single thread. Have you noticed… Yet?
This is PRECISELY THE REASON why higher levels of T over and above the clinical range are required.
E2 falls in balance on its own. We don’t measure eit. We don’t manage it. We don’t control it. We don’t worry about it. We don’t fear it. It’s responsible for half the benefits of TRT yet you can’t grasp it. Ensure OPTIMIZED free T levels until low T symptoms subside.
Why do you insist on overcomplicating it by telling propel their have estrogen levels of a woman and need to lower their T dose to bring those levels down? Do you realize what harm you are causing??
I know you are saying this with the intention of taking testosterone only, without HCG.
When you put HCG in the game it rapidly increases e2. I dont wanna challenge destiny, but even so with regular HCG and with my e2 being really high so far I seem to have no e2 issues, of course Im only one person
Yes and I appreciate the contributions from others and education for which I am always learning.
Sure but not on every occasion, I will agree some men can have excess estrogen, but some cannot and this is where we seem to clash. For some it’s they can’t have their cake and eat it to, meaning to get where they need to be they need more testosterone, but in doing so have too much estrogen and cannot achieve balance.
This might be where T-creams come into play, here you can have crazy high testosterone and still have reasonable estrogen. There are going to be men who will never be balanced on TRT no matter what they do.
I try to get them a better balance of both, a guy injecting large weekly dosing complaining of symptoms 24 hours after injections clearly has a balance issue and needs to inject more frequently and maybe lower the dosage a little.
This has time and time again turned out to resolve issues, if not then a dosage increase is warranted. You seem to forget part of this is trial and error and instead label it as harmful.
At risk of getting in the middle of something in which I have very little business being in the middle of, I’m going to add my perspective as a very new member here. I hope that it’s useful.
@systemlord - as a new member coming for advice, I very quickly began discounting and ignoring most of your comments. Not because I knew them to be inaccurate, necessarily, but because of your lack of precision and reliance on figurative language.
For example, you mention right here in the thread the notion of “balance,” but this word has no canonical scientific meaning. Likewise, with SHBG, you state that it “hands out all the cards,” but we are not playing poker. I think using more precise language might avoid a lot of these issues before they even crop up.
In interest of being evenhanded, I should point out @dbossa ‘s use of the word “optimize.” This may seem, at first glance, as subjective as “balance,” and it is. Except “optimize” seems to hold a community connotation of a subjective sense of well-being, so the subjectivity is expected. In fact, it’s being dealt with directly. The advice Danny gives is often to avoid attempts to interfere with physiological “balancing” and let the various systems perform their function.
In any case I want to be clear that I personally appreciate your interest and the time you spend. Likewise, I have a lot of respect for the other active members here and the opinions they offer. I’m not even nearly a subject matter expert on hormones, but I do think precise language will only serve all of us.
@systemlord I stated this probably 100 times in this forum alone. If a guy is doing weekly injections and doesn’t feel great, try twice weekly, try three times weekly, EOD, or daily. I have never, ever, and will never, ever, state anything regarding their protocol in any attempt to adjust estrogen. I’ve got probably 20 plus hours of videos on our channel alone that discusses why. The Google drive Jordan created is a TINY portion of the literature we have. Those happen to be some key ones that really strike it home. There is bucket loads more where they came from. However you choose to ignore all the evidence and offering your opinion instead. Your opinion is in direct contrast to all provided evidence and everything these physicians are seeing on a daily basis. I just don’t know what more I’m supposed to say here. It’s just frustrating as all hell to spend half the time explaining you’re wrong and then the other half helping people with accurate info, just as most others are doing.
To be clear, when I say optimal or optimize, I mean finding the dose where the person has symptom resolution and feels their best. That is the optimal level for that one individual. There is no number that applies to everyone. HOWEVER, 8 times out of 10 they simply aren’t taking enough to get their free T levels to a point that will outcompete everything else attaching to their receptors. We never needed these levels before but we do now, and our environment is mostly to blame here. Considering there is no evidence for harm, it is in everyone’s best interests to ensure these optimal levels.
I agree with most of you’re statements here. But this thread is an attack on another’s character and goes against forum guidelines if I recall correctly. I’d suggest changing the thread title, and whilst I’m glad he’s been called out, I want nothing to do with this systemic, mob mentality of sorts you’re started here. I’ve been bullied extensively throughout my life, I know what it feels like to be ganged up on… I will not partake here. I understand you’re frustration with system lord, and I find many of his comments frustrating too, yet I will not incessantly ask him to provide photographic evidence (something of which he is uncomfortable with), nor will I engrain myself within this issue as it appears to be a systemic attack/defamation of character. I will however comment on here as I see fit
This forum allows differing ideologies to be conveyed between differing parties, you can’t suppress one’s thoughts into submission, though you can call them out.
Dependent on the concentration of TT. A guy with a TT of 1000 and SHBG of 2 + low albumin may have FT 2x the top of ref range… granted, but a guy with an SHBG of 20, TT of 1,200… ehh… eeehhhhhh… eeeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Should also be recognised testosterone interferes with iron metabolism, if one crashes ferratin/iron stores this can come with symptoms within itself that aren’t directly related to the hormone itself (only related to a pharmacologically elicited effect)
That’s great! But 101 is still considered too high (albeit barely). Are you on metformin? Or is it diet/exercise
I assume that the person knows balance (homeostasis) will be different for everyone which is what we are trying to achieve on TRT, I give them to opportunity to find out what that is by adjusting the injection frequency.
I was on Lantus and Humalog, started TRT a week ago and was able to stop the Humalog and I don’t feel comfortable taking Humalog with glucose getting ready to drop below 100.
